Carmack: Nothing exciting about Windows 8

Microsoft may be excited about Windows 8, but id's John Carmack says he is there is nothing he is looking forward to in the new operating system.

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First, Valve boss Gabe Newell went on the record as saying Windows 8 is a bit of a catastrophe. Now, id Software's John Carmack says there is nothing he is looking forward to in the new operating system and that he is quite content with Windows 7.

Speaking at QuakeCon 2012, Carmack told the audience during his keynote that there is nothing exciting about Windows 8. "Windows XP did everything we needed for quite awhile," he said, "Hardly anyone at id used Vista." When Windows 7 came out, Carmack added, it was a bit more attractive because it did some things better and faster, so there is no reason for him to consider switching to Windows 8.

Well, there may be one reason. He joked that with Doom 3 BFG coming out for PC soon, he probably should do some testing with it.

Contributing Editor
From The Chatty
  • reply
    August 3, 2012 6:45 AM

    John Keefer posted a new article, Carmack: Nothing exciting about Windows 8.

    Microsoft may be excited about Windows 8, but id's John Carmack says he is there is nothing he is looking forward to in the new operating system.

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 7:07 AM

      Meh. Carmack's input is kind of a non-contribution. Seems like he's of the opinion that anything following XP didn't contribute much, so I don't think this is a particularly damning indictment of win8.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 7:39 AM

        Except he switched to Windows 7, citing that it did things better and faster.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 8:03 AM

        I disagree. His opinion isn't the only opinion you need, but it has value. If he thinks nothing has been contributed past XP, I'd say that's probably accurate from his point of view. What did Win7 add from a gaming engine standpoint besides DX?

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 9:39 AM

        List what Windows 7 contributed apart from supporting the newer DirectX's. You don't do anything in W7 that you didn't do in XP.

        People are shallow and they want things that are shiny and new.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 9:45 AM

          how can you possibly believe this? Are businesses investing billions of dollars to upgrade their systems just because it's shiny and new and not because of wide ranging improvements to features they care about? Has OS security not improved massively since Windows XP (when you couldn't even safely connect a fresh install to the internet sans AV software)? Has the stability of the OS not improved markedly so you don't have to worry about drivers causing BSODs and don't have to reinstall frequently to 'clean up' the machine? Do you think the massive improvements in battery life in laptops from 2001 to 2012 is purely because of hardware improvements? Etc, etc.

          • reply
            August 6, 2012 6:20 PM

            You've just proved my point...

            Most business aren't upgrading to W7. There aren't enough new features to justify the cost.

            The security is also a minor thing, and was always user error in the first place. The pop-ups everytime you want to launch an exe are more of an annoyance and not anything major. Browsers themselves do a good job of detecting scam sites and block you from visiting.

            You had to reinstall frequently? Again, user error. More stable? Maybe, but an entire new operating system just for that?

            W7 is a minor upgrade.

            • reply
              August 6, 2012 6:50 PM

              I should've just lol'd your original reply and moved on apparently

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 6:16 PM

          Security, stability, better UI on the desktop (control panels and preference panes are the same disaster from Vista, unfortunately).

          Overall, massive upgrade from XP

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 7:16 AM

      Call me when id does something exciting again.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 8:10 AM

        He should be launching some more rockets....those are exciting.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 8:10 AM

        This is a fair point. I have residual love for those guys, but Doom 3 and Rage were decent rather than awesome like their older stuff. :(

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 8:15 AM

        [deleted]

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 9:15 AM

        Are you saying Carmack can't express his opinion because he hasn't put out something "exciting" in recent years? Can we apply this logic to you as well? How about all of shacknews? That would be sweet.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 11:15 AM

          No, I'm just saying that his pronouncement doesn't carry much weight with me.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 6:05 PM

          he didnt even say that

          anyway, i'm of the opinion that Carmack / id software do get less credit for all the MEGAHYPE they do and then don't deliver.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 9:33 AM

        So mad.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 10:27 AM

        Exactly. id has been meh for ages.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 1:11 PM

        His VR stuff is pretty exciting. Valve seems to agree.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 2:36 PM

          I've been wanting decent VR for decades. However, no matter how cool it's going to be a niche market for the foreseeable future. Look how long it took for HDTV to actually become common place and there is even less reason for the average household to have a set of VR glasses. At most it will be supported by a few games and bought by a few people with a decent amount of disposable income no matter how "exciting".

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 2:40 PM

          what VR stuff of his are you referring to?

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 7:22 AM

      You know I am really getting pissed of with these shops saying "eh what ever", even if they have half assed the evaluation of WIndows 8 and don't care for the new features how can they NOT mention they are excited about DX11.1 as game developers --> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh404562(v=vs.85).aspx ? I would really love to know what all of these big shops want to see in the next OS? Seriously?

      [sigh] :( maybe these larger companies have lost the fire inside as being a gamer, remembering how things where before we have progressed so fast all the time or just straight up no longer appreciate the little things that keep progressing tech forward. I mean there is actually quiet a lot of new feature under the hood in WIn8 besides the Metro interface.

      Maybe in this day and age we take for granted way to many things and unless something increase by like 200% and blows us away we just don't care any more.

      All well I appreciate the little and medium things still and I am sure there are others. Flat out windows 8 is not just the same OS as WIn7 with Metro if you read up what has been changed and try it.

      To me just having the new DX11.1 will own and is massive on its own for instance, that's just one thing.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 8:05 AM

        I think the main concern people have with Win 8 is the potential for it to evolve into a fully-locked down platform where the only way to install apps is via the app store. That's possibly a stupid conclusion to make, but one being made nonetheless.

        From the technical side, a lot of game developers are still using lower versions of DirectX for their work, one I worked for was still using v9 until recently. Why? Because it provided APIs for everything they needed to do. They didn't (yet) need any of the higher versions of DirectX.

        There are some pretty neat features in DirectX 11.x, but I'd be interested to know just how many game developers are actually making use of that feature-set. My general impression is it's not that many. Either through the features being currently niche-market, or the level of time needed to implement effects and procedural calls that aren't even going to be seen by the majority of the current graphics card market end-users.

        Valcan_S we're playing a constant catch-up game, it does suck to see people simply "meh" latest releases, but when they have tools that do the job, and there's nothing that grabs them and says, "yes! this is what is going to be a radical game-changing feature", maybe that's understandable. For now atleast, I think the days of having blinding performance and feature changes between graphics API's are over. Just as we went from cpu frequency to number of cores in the processor market, that same rule is in some way pushing into the GPU market. Developers are looking more at what they can get from the existing API's and hardware, rather than looking at what's newer and faster.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 8:57 AM

          All the armchair IT professionals on the internet like to dismiss the danger of a walled garden future for windows but Microsoft has given more than enough indication that that is where they want to go.
          Am I the only who remembers the new Visual Studio would be for Metro development only? They backpedaled fast but the writing IS on the wall.
          But ok sure we at the shack like Microsoft nowadays so everyone with a contrary opinion is automatically wrong. Carmack, Gabe Newell? What the fuck do they know, right?

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 9:04 AM

            I think you're missing the point of my post. I'm not dismissing anything. I've only stated that the technical reasons for being excited about the latest version of a now levelling-out OS and graphics API are diminishing.

            (For the record I don't own an armchair)

            • reply
              August 3, 2012 9:19 AM

              Your first paragraph says it's a stupid thought, that's what I'm replying to. Saying "possibly stupid" doesn't get you out of that.

              • reply
                August 3, 2012 9:25 AM

                It's stupid if you don't look at the larger picture. Yes it's possible. Will it happen? Doubtful. Either way none of us know if the big bad monster in the room that no one's willing to talk about, - your walled garden, is worthy of being feared to the degree that it is. Customers are fickle. Vendor lockout is a sure-fire way to piss a lot of people off, very quickly.

                My opinion? Windows App Store is a great thing, as long as it's not the only way in which to download and install apps going forwards to Windows vNext. Locking it down so it's the only option? Stupid.

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 9:14 AM

            Am I the only who remembers the new Visual Studio would be for Metro development only? They backpedaled fast but the writing IS on the wall.

            That was never the case. It was only a question of what free versions would be able to do.

            • reply
              August 3, 2012 9:21 AM

              That's more than enough. It's just more pushing development to the Metro garden. Ofcourse they would be taking it small steps at a time.

              • reply
                August 3, 2012 9:27 AM

                Fortunately ms never go more than two years with any GUI toolkit, so Metro will be canned for the next big thing before long.

              • reply
                August 3, 2012 9:29 AM

                So is the fear that MS are going to gradually lock down windows in the style of sticking a lobster in a pan of water and slowly raising the heat?

                If that's the case, I guess the only way we'll know if that's the plan they have is by looking at Win 9. I can only imagine a metric ton of anti-competitive legal cases being brought by governments, given Windows' ubiquity as the defacto OS for most of the worlds population.

              • reply
                August 3, 2012 9:30 AM

                more than enough for what? To justify the hat you're wearing? What conclusions were you drawing about the future when there were no free versions of VS at all?

                • reply
                  August 3, 2012 9:39 AM

                  More than enough to see the direction Microsoft would like to see. Doesn't mean it's going to happen but if it is you can't sit back and wait which is why Gabe Newell is doing what he's doing. If Microsoft does NOT want to go down this route then there is plenty they could do to prove it. Instead they are letting the fears live and making people prepare to jump ship if it turns out to be necessary, which hurts MS's position no matter what they do because Valve won't be taking Steam Linux offline when it's out there.

                  And I'm not going to argue this shit with you any further because I know it is impossible to get anywhere.

                  • reply
                    August 3, 2012 9:41 AM

                    If Microsoft does NOT want to go down this route then there is plenty they could do to prove it

                    Like what? Your fear is based on conjecture about multiple future releases. So what could MS do to alleviate those fears right now other than publicly releasing the plans for Windows for like the next 2-3 versions (which don't exist)? Anything less than that and you could make the same argument you're doing now.

                    • reply
                      August 3, 2012 9:45 AM

                      For one thing they could open up Metro. There is no reason to make it a closed system. Everything that is wrong with Android being open can be fixed, and hell Microsoft is probably the most qualified to pull it off.

                      • reply
                        August 3, 2012 9:48 AM

                        Everything that is wrong with Android being open can be fixed, and hell Microsoft is probably the most qualified to pull it off.

                        How? Android is using the MS model from Windows and early Windows Mobile, so clearly MS understands well the problems with those models and has had many many years to try to improve on some of those issues. Why isn't Google qualified/capable of fixing the same problems in Android?

                        • reply
                          August 3, 2012 9:52 AM

                          Why isn't Google as qualified in making an OS as Microsoft, this is what you're asking me? Like I said, I'm not arguing with you anymore. as of right.......... NOW

                          • reply
                            August 3, 2012 9:56 AM

                            The problems Windows, WM6, and Android face/have faced regarding fragmentation, upgrading, piracy, etc really have little to do with just 'making an OS' which is what you don't get. Those problems don't exist for Android because Google isn't smart enough to somehow magically make them disappear in the Android code. It's a business model problem. What you're saying is basically "just solve the simple and obvious issues of horizontal business models and OEM partnerships man, duh". Except for the part where that's enormously difficult and so far largely unsolved as far as the problems mentioned above.

              • reply
                August 3, 2012 3:41 PM

                And? User feedback was acted on and changes were made. Don't you usually complain how user feedback is being ignored?

                • reply
                  August 3, 2012 4:14 PM

                  Developers are more important to satisfy than power users.

                  • reply
                    August 3, 2012 4:30 PM

                    Your ability to link unrelated cases knows no bounds. Yes, user feedback is prioritized. Different teams will prioritize different feedback differently based on different goals, different schedules, different costs and more. That one particular piece of feedback was acted on while another was not says nothing in isolation about its overall importance. The cost of the thing that was changed may have been massively simpler or safer than the one which was not for example.

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 1:18 PM

            Visual Studio Express...

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 9:02 AM

          Yeah well I guess on a positive note all AAA companies complaining will help assure MS never does make a fully-locked down platform so I guess I should not be so pissed off and actually thank them. Its just so many times people shit on MS and their OS yet to me its the best thing out there and I really think they are doing a great job all these years. I guess they get tough love and their success is their own enemy.

          Totally DX9 really has everything you need to a point(you can not make UE4 type engine with it) and minus the volumetric stuff from just a visual stand point. Normal,displacement and parallax mapping is a pure mans tessellation but all can look really awesome. Still the new APIs do add allot of other cool and more efficient stuff I guess when UE4 drops and some others it may spark other devs to finally move to DX11.x and see the potential and say "oh shit that is hot we need that". I have massive hopes for UE4 and how it should help push the industry to DX11.x.

          Yeah looks like it will give pretty large performance boosts and some other cool things I really hope it takes off too. If the new consoles where coming out too that help push DX11.x for sure I would think.

          Sigh, yeah you are right I don't want to admit it for my own agenda and vision thinks differently but its true, just got to really hope the new DX11.x engines stir the juices once again and help innovate the visuals and games.

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 9:19 AM

            Keep the faith man :) There is going to be some awesome sauce in the coming few years, but my feeling though is that it's going to be in the field of AI and virtual intelligence-lead animation. Being unable to differentiate between a human character, and one procedurally generated would in my opinion be the next step.

            The one thing people yearn for is interaction, and while there will always be a market for the twitch shooters and military AAA genre, (no one's going to stop and stare at tesselation in a war zone) there's a great deal more use for DX11 and eventually 12 in a new realm of human-computer interaction. If you could take your hardware setup, and put it all into visual head-ware apparatus, envelop yourself in a world, and people, where you have no concept of any differentiation between the real world and virtual, I believe that's where the advancing APIs are heading to, and that's where they'll be put to good use. So when Carmack says "meh" it's because he's waiting, - for the ability to do something like just this. I think Microsoft and the major GPU vendors can deliver.

            It's a waiting-game Valcan_S. Luckily we're right on the cusp of seeing some truly incredible changes to how we play and view games. All we need is a little patience. ;)

            • reply
              August 3, 2012 10:18 AM

              I really hope so, you have some nice ones that I really hope advance and I think they will, better AI, animation and NPC that have AI in terms of communicating that make you want to talk to would be a massive improvement to all games. I hope it happens its only a matter of time like you said.

              Bring it I am READY \m/

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 8:05 AM

        As you said, I think they just sort of realize that there's diminishing returns on bleeding edge graphics using current techniques. It ties in with why he's more excited about the VR stuff, which is where there's a potentially substantial difference in the overall experience.

        I think the realtime lighting and kismet in UE4 are the sort of things that will make a huge difference, where you're able to leverage faster design iteration rather than raw pixel generation.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 8:41 AM

        DX11.1 is an incremental improvement. DX10 was a big jump API-wise, but since then there's not a lot of real value. Tessellation is the marquee feature but nobody it's too limited to use for anything but make already-high-poly meshes slightly smoother. It doesn't make a huge difference in reality (no matter how many times Nvidia and AMD reps zoom in on an ear lobe to show you that it's now smoother).

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 8:50 AM

          You're not going to see people doing much with this stuff until the next generation of consoles.

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 8:57 AM

            Even then it's not great. Xbox 360 had tessellation and nobody used it for much of anything. DX11 is only marginally better than the Xbox 360 stuff tbh - most importantly, all of the main problems that the 360 tessellation had that prevented its adoption still exist in DX11. I'd be surprised if you see any of it outside of like terrain and basically "special fx" (i.e. replace parallax mapping with some slight tessellation and use it in the same sorts of places).

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 9:28 AM

          It made an appreciable difference in DXHR and Arkham City.

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 9:42 AM

            But no more than any random "shiny" feature you can add in. Not saying it's not a useful feature, just that it's an incremental special effects type thing right now, rather than a fundamental feature (which is what it should've been). Most of the surfaces where it matters you'd just use parallax occlusion mapping instead and get roughly the same effect.

      • Ebu legacy 10 years
        reply
        August 3, 2012 8:42 AM

        My issues all center on Metro.

        I fucking hate Metro. It is horrible. It may work decently on a phone, but fuck off with my PC. Just let me restore the W7 Start Menu and we'd be good.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 8:54 AM

        If Carmack isn't excited about DX11.1, why should anyone else care?

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 9:06 AM

          Smaller PC focused developers might use the stuff. CDProjekt and the Metro:Last Light guys are the only ones that come to mind.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 9:33 AM

        DX11.1 could have been released for Win7... It's not the OS that makes it great or not.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 9:37 AM

          Yeah, exactly.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 11:50 AM

          I still assume MS will release dx11.1 for win7 sometime in the future. SP2 update.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 9:54 AM

        What are the features besides DX11.1 and Metro that you're interested in?

        And why couldn't DX11.1 be run on Windows 7?

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 11:48 AM

        why would Carmack of all people give a shit about a new DirectX

        • Ebu legacy 10 years
          reply
          August 3, 2012 12:47 PM

          Why would Carmack of all people not give a shit about a new DirectX?

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 9:56 PM

            Because his games all use opengl?

            • Ebu legacy 10 years
              reply
              August 3, 2012 10:24 PM

              Right, because he feels it is the best option.

              Of course he's "giving a shit" about each new version of DX. If DX11.1 surpasses all of OGL's functionality, expect him to change. He's nothing if not pragmatic.

              • reply
                August 3, 2012 11:42 PM

                I expect it to offer better cross platform compatibility any release now! But yes, I can see that PoV

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 12:02 PM

        You've got Blizzard and Valve, who both want their stuff to work on everything for the past decade, and id, who's in love with OpenGL. Epic and Crytek and Bethesda are the one's who's opinions I care about when it comes to new stuff (outside of just their new stuff).

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 6:16 PM

        not sure if idtech's uses direct x as it's renderer

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 8:09 AM

      Well, he *is* the expert on products that aren't exciting.

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 8:27 AM

      Microsoft should announce a free flashlight with ever copy, that might get his attention.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 11:28 AM

        fleshlight might get a better response

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 8:54 AM

      The fact that he is saying that there hasn't been big improvement in Windows for id since XP I think just shows that the OS is no longer the bottle neck. Really, it just means developers have fewer excuses as to why PC gaming development is hard or something they don't like to do.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 9:11 AM

        He also came out recently and said developing with DirectX is better than OpenGL, they just have too much invested in openGL. DirectX APIs, tools, and debugging are so much better.

        Plus OpenGL has these stupid committees behind them (one of the reasons I hate PHP as well)

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 10:00 AM

      This means nothing. Carmack is a genius, but he is pretty irrelevant these days. I said it.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 10:03 AM

        His work on rocketry is far, far more important to the Human race, I'd rather he focus on that. Seriously.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 10:11 AM

          [deleted]

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 10:18 AM

            Don't confuse id's failure to create a compelling game of RAGE with Carmack's current contributions. The open source ports of id games to iOS, releasing idTech4 as GPL alone are big. RAGE didn't light the world on fire, but the work he's doing on idTech5 will be around for quite a while, and is well suited to forward thinking tech like cloud streaming.

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 11:20 AM

            That is what I was getting at. I doubt he's looking at Windows 8 from a rocket science point of view.

            • reply
              August 3, 2012 11:45 AM

              If I had you and Carmack standing in front of me offering opinions on Windows 8 I'd listen to his 9.9 times out of ten. I leave the .1 in case you are a really smokin' hot chick.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 10:06 AM

        Thank the heavens that you know everything and are here to let us know who we can trust!

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 3:06 PM

        So. Goddamn. Brave. /tearful salute

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 10:14 AM

      i love the common theme of "oh so-and-so doesnt like it? oh hes not important anyway."

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 11:51 AM

        Right. On the one hand, I've got a brilliant programmer and rocket scientist, and on the other hand I've got... Some enthusiastic Shackers who are light on evidence, and Microsoft's marketing department. And somewhere in between is an operating system that looks like an attempt to copy iOS and paste it onto the desktop.

        But Rage wasn't too amazing, so FUCK YOU JOHN CARMACK, WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT ANYTHING

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 12:16 PM

          so if Epic says they like Windows 8 where does that piece of evidence fit in?

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 12:35 PM

            I would find that to be compelling. If they said it. Did they say it? I don't think they said it.

            • reply
              August 3, 2012 1:55 PM

              In wish list form: http://m.pcgamer.com/2011/03/04/mark-rein-calls-for-curated-app-store-in-windows-8

              Post announcement of said feature: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windows-8-App-Store-Is-Great-for-PC-Gaming-Epic-Games-Boss-Says-220857.shtml

              App stores solve so many important problems for developers, problems far more pressing than a new version of DirectX/OpenGL, and that's been the case for awhile. MS tried before to have an app store to solve some of these issues years ago (it was called the Windows Marketplace). It's really little surprise that a few of the companies involved in owning a delivery platform are less enthusiastic than those who don't (while those less enthusiastic folks have been happily putting apps on iOS).

              • reply
                August 3, 2012 6:31 PM

                I don't care if there's an app store, so long as it's completely optional. I don't entirely see why that needs to be an operating system feature.

                • reply
                  August 3, 2012 6:44 PM

                  then you don't understand the biggest problems facing modern developers or average users and why iOS has been as successful as it has.

                  And the app store is optional for the x86/x64 version, you're free to find and install your traditional Windows apps (like Steam and existing games) as you always have.

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 2:41 PM

            But they didn't say this. We can't argue hypotheticals

            • reply
              August 3, 2012 2:51 PM

              I linked to specific quotes where they did

              • reply
                August 3, 2012 7:12 PM

                Did any engineering people at Epic say that, or just Rein?

                • reply
                  August 3, 2012 7:16 PM

                  why does that matter?

                  • reply
                    August 3, 2012 9:18 PM

                    Word from someone who actually writes code/knows wtf is better than word of soul selling exec. Well, imo anyway.

                    I guess the one thing about these threads that really gets me: why the fuck does anyone care enough to generate this much conversation. New windows OS = meh. It's going to suck until sp1, and until then there's not much sense in forming an opinion.

                    • reply
                      August 3, 2012 9:47 PM

                      A feature could be extremely useful to the business that coder works for without impacting his programming process, and he may or may not be aware of what or why that is.

                      • reply
                        August 3, 2012 10:05 PM

                        Citation needed re exec that isn't blood sucker.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 1:26 PM

        Yeah, seems it doesnt matter who you are, if you're a prominent person and try to tell shackers what to think about a version of windows that most of them already hate well then FUCK YOU BUDDY

        The ranking of Shacknews sacred cows is updated

        1,Cocks
        2.Windows 8
        3.Valve/Steam

        John Carmack temporarily drops to rank 250. At least Gabe Newell has some company down there.

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 12:21 PM

      Windows 8 is the new Windows Vista / Windows ME, you heard it here first

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 12:26 PM

        ME sucked, the hate for Vista was overblown, I used it as a work OS for 2 years with no problems.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 12:42 PM

          I thought Vista was okay, but the back-end changes and the driver makers playing catch-up meant I couldn't do a lot of the things I could do on XP, and there was a bit of a performance hit on the things I could still do. By the time those problems had been fixed and my hardware was upgraded enough, Windows 7 was already close to release.

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 1:12 PM

            To be fair, I started using Vista after it already had service pack 2.

            • reply
              August 3, 2012 4:10 PM

              That was well after many of the performance problems were fixed; Vista RTM was far worse.

              • reply
                August 3, 2012 6:32 PM

                and yet, still not the horror show that know-nothings say it was, because that's what they heard.

        • Ebu legacy 10 years
          reply
          August 3, 2012 12:48 PM

          FGKWTF

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 1:58 PM

          Yeah I actually still have vista on my home gaming machine. Just no reason to upgrade. I've had no issues with it

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 4:53 PM

        Right, also "skip every other windows" and "metro for tablets good, desktop bad" amirite? You heard it here first my fucking ass. Same fucking circle jerk, different goddamned day.

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 6:30 PM

          and often from the same ones, repeating their folksy, ignorant wisdom ad nauseum

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 9:53 PM

        No I didn't, because you poopsockers won't stfu

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 2:16 PM

      [deleted]

    • reply
      August 3, 2012 4:46 PM

      I don't understand why he expects Microsoft to bend over backwards to assist game development. They make an operating system that goes on something like 90% of the consumer PCs. Maybe 10% of those actually play demanding PC games on them these days.

      If you want to capitalize on that huge set of customers, it's on you to build stuff that works well, not Microsoft.

      • reply
        August 3, 2012 6:32 PM

        I agree Microsoft should only create products for the user groups that make them the most money, FUCK EVERYBODY ELSE

        • reply
          August 3, 2012 6:49 PM

          That's kinda how businesses operate

          • reply
            August 3, 2012 7:42 PM

            Or they satisfy as many customers as they can.

            • reply
              August 3, 2012 7:49 PM

              They have a majority in the desktop OS market. OS X has a barrier of cost that limits its reach despite being a superior OS in many ways, and Linux has a barrier of usability/compatibility which offsets it being free. Windows holding the majority will continue.

              From Microsoft's standpoint, why should they care about PC gaming when they can sell gamers into a separate console ecosystem? Most of those same people are already most likely on Windows anyway. It isn't surprising that they've thrown PC gaming under the bus when they can sell to some of their customers twice, it just isn't worth putting the resources into their development studios or OS in comparison.

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              August 3, 2012 8:38 PM

              that's kinda how businesses operate, it so happens that a feature to satisfy someone costs time and money, which constraints what 'many' is in this case

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          August 3, 2012 11:53 PM

          That's the Apple way, see final cut pro and aperture.

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        August 3, 2012 11:40 PM

        gaming is a pretty significant industry, even though its segmented over several different platforms if they made strides to make the experience more uniform/less bothersome(like the xbox), it would only help them in the long term.

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          August 4, 2012 3:38 AM

          Microsoft isn't going to actively hurt the PC gaming industry but they don't have a lot of incentive to really help it either.

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      August 3, 2012 7:27 PM

      What are you a fucking genius mr Carmack ? We know more about Windows 8 than you ! It comes with METRO and DX 11.157443,9

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      August 3, 2012 9:04 PM

      True story, id peaked with Quake 2. When UT '99 came out I saw Epic winning. But they shouldn't feel too bad. 100 years from now people will remember Carmack more than they do Sweeney.

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        August 3, 2012 10:38 PM

        I kinda feel they peaked with QW...as much as I love Q2 and Q3...I think QW in retrospect was probably the best multiplayer they put out (though DOOM2 was amazing in its technologically primitive sort of way).

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          August 3, 2012 11:01 PM

          I think John Carmack himself peaked with Quake3 or maybe Doom3, in terms of engine development. These days, as brilliant as the man is, with the proliferation of UnrealEngine, he's just not as relevant as he once was. His opinions just don't hold as much weight anymore.

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      August 6, 2012 2:48 PM

      Correction: Carmack: nothing exciting out of IDSoft for the past 10 years.

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