Morning Discussion

Hey hey hey, welcome to Tuesday. This means two things.

First, those in North America should be able to find Dead Space in stores tomorrow. I think it's worth a look, as I came away impressed, and a little scared.

Second, we're one day closer to Friday, which, coincidentally, is when my Xbox 360 comes back from ye olde repair shop. Come home soon darling, I miss you :(

Oh, and if you're one of those Diablo fans, you pretty much need to check out the mind-boggling display of Diablo 3 information that Nick has compiled in his Diablo 3: What We Know So Far preview.

Chris Faylor was previously a games journalist creating content at Shacknews.

From The Chatty
    • reply
      October 14, 2008 6:47 AM

      they just need to give me a week's warning so I can go back and play through HL2 through Ep:2.

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        October 14, 2008 7:17 AM

        I started playing through HL2 on sunday and i'll probably end up playing through the 2 episodes as well. Then once episode 3 is almost ready I'll probably play through them all again :)

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      October 14, 2008 6:47 AM

      Play as Barney, Chell, Alyx, or Robocop

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        October 14, 2008 6:47 AM

        The jumping puzzles will be annoying as fuck with Robocop.

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        October 14, 2008 6:48 AM

        the need a level where Gordon hijacks a Strider and fucks shit up.

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          October 14, 2008 7:48 AM

          something tells me that's not that far off... I'm sure that by then, Alyx's wand of "Now do what I want" will have the ability to hack more than just doors and computer consoles... She'll be able to control the minds of the combine forces and use them to overthrow the overlords!

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            October 14, 2008 9:25 AM

            Alyx is a Timelord. I am calling it right here and right now.

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        October 14, 2008 6:49 AM

        Dr. Judith Mossman ftl

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        October 14, 2008 7:30 AM

        Play as Chell, choose a relationship with either Barney OR Alyx!

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          October 14, 2008 7:51 AM

          I can already hear Fox News preparing the exclusive!

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        October 14, 2008 8:01 AM

        Damn, how would I watch her every move then? A Trespasser "health rating" system?

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          October 14, 2008 8:12 AM

          I liked that system. Didn't you stare at your boobs to find out your health? How come that's not a standard?

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            October 14, 2008 8:17 AM

            Yes, but if her outfit doesn't change, it won't make it worthwhile.

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      October 14, 2008 6:47 AM

      I would totally play en entire episode as Dog

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      October 14, 2008 6:48 AM

      [deleted]

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        October 14, 2008 6:50 AM

        it's a teaser that they may be announcing more info before the end of the year.

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        October 14, 2008 7:16 AM

        Gordon Freeman will be voiced by Morgan Freeman or PeeWee Herman; no final decision has been made.

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      October 14, 2008 6:50 AM

      It just means it won't be out before 2010.

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      October 14, 2008 6:51 AM

      It looks to me like he speicifically declined to give any new info. Do I need a neckbeard to see it?

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      October 14, 2008 7:13 AM

      Wiiild speculation there that maybe we'll be playing as Chell before we play as Gordon again?

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        October 14, 2008 7:14 AM

        [deleted]

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        October 14, 2008 7:16 AM

        Why go that far? Why not Alyx?

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        October 14, 2008 7:53 AM

        I like this comment:

        That’s because we’ll be playing as Chell. Gordon will be playable only as a bonus unlockable (Gordon’s Combine Advisor Petting Zoo) which you get for completing an extended and deeply irritating rhythm game that involves shooting a stream of multicolored headcrabs that explode in musical rhythm with G-Man’s erratic diction attempting to wrestle with Girls Aloud’s greatest hits.

    • gmd legacy 10 years legacy 20 years mercury mega
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      October 14, 2008 7:16 AM

      We need a sequel to OpFor.

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        October 14, 2008 7:27 AM

        Yea, I'm surprised no one ever took up the reins of that story arc. What happened at the end, all I remember is that it was surprisingly short. First game that pissed me off in that regard.

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      October 14, 2008 7:19 AM

      I may play this sometime in the 2020's.

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      October 14, 2008 7:26 AM

      I'm sorry, but Valve's timeline for episodic content is balls. When they were first going on about it, I think everyone's assumption, including my own was that we were going to see content releases at least annually, if not bi-annually.

      They should have dispelled that notion immediately.

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        October 14, 2008 7:28 AM

        [deleted]

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          October 14, 2008 7:47 AM

          Yea, it's more in tune with Star Wars than Star Trek....

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          October 14, 2008 8:46 AM

          the debonair and classy robin walker QFT

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        October 14, 2008 10:24 AM

        Yeah...I don't think Valve quite gets how "episodic" gaming is supposed to work.

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          October 14, 2008 10:35 AM

          nobody really does. it's very, very difficult to do it. I can tell you that in order to get a shorter/cheaper game out on a strict schedule you need a lot of people willing to bust their asses. when you are doing a console release it's even more difficult because release dates depend on the game passing through certification, which can often times take two weeks. the more complex your game is, the more stuff there is to worry about, and the more time it takes to actually build something.

          if Valve wanted some kind of strict six-month schedule they would have to pretty much make all three episodes at the same time and then stagger the release dates. and then that would prevent them from getting feedback from anyone since the upcoming episodes would effectively be done. one of the reasons episode 2 was so improved over episode 1 (which was a vast improvement over HL2) is because of user input.

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            October 14, 2008 12:55 PM

            If that's the case, then maybe we're just not ready for episodic gaming.

            I'd much rather have another "complete" Half Life game than these episodes that're so far apart.

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      October 14, 2008 7:36 AM

      [deleted]

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        October 14, 2008 7:51 AM

        That's exactly what is going to happen.

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          October 14, 2008 8:07 AM

          Yea, my guess is Orange Box 2:
          HL2 and it's subsequent Episodes I, II, III
          Portal 1 & 2
          TF2 + All of the new shit
          Dog's Life (or some other unannounced title)

          MSRP 50-60 bucks
          On steam with a 10-15% off within the first week of release.

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            October 14, 2008 8:12 AM

            they better not do that all over again...i didnt mind orange box, but i wouldnt want to buy hl1 ep1,2 for a THIRD time, and tf2 portal a second time.

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              October 14, 2008 8:13 AM

              Why do people make this complaint? If it would be $40 for Ep3 + Portal 2, why does it matter if they throw in a bunch of stuff you already have anyway?

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                October 14, 2008 8:23 AM

                [deleted]

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                  October 14, 2008 8:24 AM

                  No we wouldn't, because HL2 would suck if EA was pulling the strings.

                  I agree it shouldn't take that long, though. Valve is fragmented, between Steam and all of its various side projects. That wasn't the deal during the development of HL1 and HL2.

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                    October 14, 2008 8:28 AM

                    Well, HL2 took six years and is about 12 hours long..each of these episodes is 5-6 hours. Ep 1 came out two years after HL2 and Ep2 one year after that? 18 months after? Considering each episode is a standalone experience that is expertly paced they are actually producing content at a faster pace than during the HL2 development.

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                      October 14, 2008 8:31 AM

                      EP1 and EP2 use the same engine and the same assets, though. HL2's development saw Source built from the ground up.

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                        October 14, 2008 8:36 AM

                        the engine has a lot of changes between HL2 and Ep1, which is why it took so long. also there are some reused assets but there are still a large number of new assets. and anyway building assets like textures and models isn't the most time consuming part of making a game, it's building all the maps, and then texturing and tweaking them and testing them and tweaking them and all the scripting which needs to be very thoroughly tested. both of those things undergo constant changes and adjustments and Valve is very, very picky about testing and tweaking their games (especially the episodes) so the development time isn't really anything absurd given their high standard of quality.

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                          October 14, 2008 8:38 AM

                          i knew i was going to regret not specifying "mostly" the same engine and same assets.

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                          October 14, 2008 8:42 AM

                          [deleted]

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                            October 14, 2008 8:47 AM

                            Bull shit. Valve's push of gameplay is what got them to where they are now.

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                              October 14, 2008 8:50 AM

                              The gameplay in the Episodes has not advanced at all. It's the same game as HL2 was.

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                                October 14, 2008 8:55 AM

                                [deleted]

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                                  October 14, 2008 8:57 AM

                                  There's more content, and the content is better, but the gameplay is the same.

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                                    October 14, 2008 9:08 AM

                                    What is your definition of gameplay - and what would you want to see done differently?

                                    HL2 went from phsyics, to gunplay, to driving, to physics - ep1 went did the same thing, but in reverse, but it added flashlight ai assist with Alyx popping the zombies that you aimed your flashlight at.

                                    EP2 was more of the same but they added a new method for taking down Striders using a combination of physics and gunplay (one could say it's no different than tossing red barrels and mines) but it was still something new.

                                    It also added an amazing sequence of being chased by the antlions in the tunnels (INTENSE moment when those fuckers are RIGHT on your heels - and you just manage to duck into a smaller tunnel a moment before getting a giant antlion leg shoved up your ass).

                                    And to top it off it gave you a new environment to stroll around it, plus new baddies to tackle. And you couldn't fight the Hunters the same as you fought the combine or striders. They were far more aggressive and harder to take down.

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                                      October 14, 2008 9:14 AM

                                      You still play the game the same way. There's nothing new to learn. New enemies and AI assist aren't much of a gameplay change at all. I would say the addition of the gravity gun between HL1 and HL2 was a major gameplay shift, but there's nothing of remotely that magnitude in the Episodes.

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                                        October 14, 2008 9:16 AM

                                        Just because they don't introduce new gameplay elements doesn't make them stale or a retread.

                                        The pacing, script, story, battles, and overall structure of Ep2 in particular essentially eclipses even the best highs of HL2 and Ep1. They are improving their flow with each release.

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                                          October 14, 2008 9:19 AM

                                          I don't think it's a serious problem. I'm just making an observation that they've been conservative with gameplay advancements in the Episodes. This is probably because they're "workshopping" new gameplay elements in Portal.

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                                            October 14, 2008 10:35 AM

                                            I'm looking forward to everything coming together only to be violently torn apart in a fraction of the time

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                                October 14, 2008 9:52 AM

                                My point was more the emphasis of gameplay over graphics that valve seems to go for. Yes the gameplay hasn't changed a whole hell of a lot from HL2 to ep 2, but the small things they add and they way they make it all work together to make it fun is what puts valve apart from others.

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                              October 14, 2008 8:53 AM

                              Agreed - Crytek pushes technology - but their games are shitty not as good, overall, in comparison to the experience and story created at Valve.

                              And there's a lot of things that changed between ep1 and ep2 - they tweaked the lighting engine (added casting of dynamic shadows iirc) and they added in the cinematic physics. Plus the time that it must take to design, build, compile, test, tweak, re-compile, test, etc, etc every level is astronomical.

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                  October 14, 2008 8:26 AM

                  It takes that long because it's fucking Valve and they are possibly the best developer of games on the planet, and they polish everything to perfection, playtest, iterate, and don't release until they're ready.

                  Do you think they take so long to release these episodes because of incompetence or mis-management? It's because they are perfectionists.

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                    October 14, 2008 8:36 AM

                    [deleted]

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                      October 14, 2008 8:38 AM

                      EP2 may be short, but Orange Box is undoubtedly an awesome value and not just the appearance of one.

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                      October 14, 2008 8:39 AM

                      oh man can we please get into this argument again! I love the gameplay length = value argument! let's not look at the quality of the game or anything. jesus fuck. also both episodes were $20 on their own and you can buy ep1 for $10 and ep2 for $15 right now

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                        October 14, 2008 8:45 AM

                        [deleted]

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                          October 14, 2008 9:15 AM

                          I don't see why it matters how long it takes. Literally hundreds of games come out each year that are worth playing. Just play other great shit and then Hey, surprise! Ep3 is out now! Then play that.

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                  October 14, 2008 9:25 AM

                  Did you seriously just say you wish EA were running Valve?

                  That is the worst thing anyone has ever posted, including that abortion of a Jesus sign thread.

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      October 14, 2008 7:41 AM

      I still haven't beaten the game :d

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      October 14, 2008 7:48 AM

      I really wish they would let some other company that is known for releasing games on time play with Half Life universe.

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        October 14, 2008 7:50 AM

        ...and what company might that be? If someone puts something out, releases it on time, then it's probably not worth playing.

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          October 14, 2008 7:52 AM

          Gearbox comes to mind since they've done it in the past with Opposing Force

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            October 14, 2008 7:53 AM

            Pretty sure they did Blue Shift too.

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            October 14, 2008 8:05 AM

            A good game, but not great, and lacked much of the depth that Valve generated with HL. Sure there were some great scripted moments, but it was so damn short that it failed to generate much in terms of great gaming moments.

            If you're all about paying full price for very short games that come out on time, okay.

            I'm not. Give me lots of content and an experience that I will remember for longer than your 3 hour romp.

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            October 14, 2008 8:17 AM

            Gearbox is a great company, and they are usually really good about meeting deadlines... that said they have yet to make anything that is the caliber of the Half-Life episodes. There's really nobody I would want to make the Half-Life games. I mean who cares if they get delayed, they are awesome.

            Also that said, they never announced a release for Episode 3, so it's not like they are late at all this time. They haven't given any concrete info about it at all except that it will probably be out in late 2009 and even that was mainly based on speculation and guessing.

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              October 14, 2008 10:56 AM

              Wasn't Valve quoted at saying the HL Episodes would be every 6 months?

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                October 14, 2008 11:58 AM

                I have no clue, but they were later quoted as saying that they guessed wrong and that they changed their mind on episodic. so you can continue to pick and choose quotes from back from before episode 1 was released but the fact remains that they have never promised a six-month release schedule since the delay of episode 1.

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            October 14, 2008 8:19 AM

            And OpFor was pretty awesome.

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        October 14, 2008 7:51 AM

        Fuck That.

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        October 14, 2008 7:53 AM

        [deleted]

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        October 14, 2008 8:08 AM

        Do you miss the universe that much?

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        October 14, 2008 8:27 AM

        Let Blizzard make HL and Valve make Diablo.

        • DM7 legacy 10 years legacy 20 years
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          October 14, 2008 8:34 AM

          ew. Don't touch my Diablo outsiders! ;D

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        October 14, 2008 8:38 AM

        The only developers I can think of that release games 'on time' are the ones that make movie tie ins, and except for the incredibly rare example like Spiderman 2 or Hulk:UD, they all stink.

        So the question is, do you hate Half Life?

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        October 14, 2008 8:50 AM

        You really think that Valve has nothing to do with why the Half Life universe is good?

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        October 14, 2008 8:55 AM

        Fuck no.

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        October 14, 2008 9:11 AM

        Hell motherfucking no. There are two bastions of "do-it-until-its-right" game design left in the world: Valve and Blizzard. I want both of them fucked with as little as possible.

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        October 14, 2008 10:27 AM

        this idea, it is terrible

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        October 14, 2008 10:35 AM

        i really wish they'd let toyota make the new lamborghini, those fuckers just take too long

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      October 14, 2008 7:55 AM

      I love the HL2 Episodes, but I hate the release schedule =(

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      October 14, 2008 8:21 AM

      not really going out on a limb to say it'll be brilliant

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      October 14, 2008 8:24 AM

      [deleted]

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      October 14, 2008 8:34 AM

      Hopefully this will give them more time to introduce some new gameplay mechanics. Episode 2 was mostly a disappointment for me.

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      October 14, 2008 8:52 AM

      Be gratefull for their episodic gaming. Otherwise we wouln't have seen HL3 untill 2020.

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      October 14, 2008 9:11 AM

      I don't *get* Valve. I understand fully what took HL2 so long - it was epic and a vastly different game from HL1. Episode 1 took awhile because they probably didn't start up right away. However episode 2 took forever for no good reason, there was simply nothing there to justify that kind of timeframe. The episodes are like polished mods, they are different levels and new scenarios. I fail to understand why that takes 2+ years to finish.

      I mean yes we all want Episode 3, but it really bothers me that we won't see it for another year or so and when we do it's going to be over in like 4-5 hours with a cliffhanger ending. Doesn't that annoy the fuck out of anyone else? I mean remove that blasted "episodic" tag - these are expansions plain and simple.

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        October 14, 2008 9:19 AM

        "No good reason"? You didn't notice that there were those other games Team Fortress 2 and Portal packed in there? For all I know, you may not have enjoyed those games so that reason might not be satisfying to you personally, but it's certainly a good reason. Valve had never shipped a simultaneously multiplatform game before, and had certainly never released multiple entirely separate games the same day, let alone three of them. For a studio of Valve's size and for a studio that generally develops at the pace Valve does, that was a pretty significant achievement.

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          October 14, 2008 9:34 AM

          No no, you misunderstood. I know all about the orange box bundle. However I don't believe forcing Episode 1 customers to buy that box was a good move. Tell me why Episode 2 couldn't be released a whole year sooner on it's own for $20 versus being bundled? Why couldn't they just bundle TF2 and Portal?

          To me I never liked the way they slid those games together like that. I'm sure we all were grateful for forcing Portal down our necks (because lord knows I might never have bought it and had as much fun with it otherwise) but I didn't want TF2.

          Make no mistake - the orange box only succeeded because it was valve. Had EA tried a stunt like that they'd have had their balls stepped on multiple times. Valve got away with it because we all assumed all three were quality, and thus worth the money. However delaying games just to make a bundle is not a good practice when you are preaching "episodic is the future" like Valve was.

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        October 14, 2008 9:20 AM

        No mod is as polished as Episode 2. That was probably the finest FPS to come out in 2007.

        They did things like add HDR, motion blur, and other technical features. They also revamped the driving physics and added large-scale outdoor vehicular battles.

        Episode 2 only took 16 months. This isn't EA where they can pump out a new Madden in 12 months because 300 people are working on it.

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          October 14, 2008 9:26 AM

          Also, it's apparent from the in-game commentary that they playtest the everliving shit out of each section of the game to fine-tune it to fit standards of pacing, fun, challenge, reward, and story.

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          October 14, 2008 9:38 AM

          Episode 2 was good because it was HL2 + more of the same good story only in a tighter package. However don't forget much of what made that game amazing already existed as early as 2005. Did you honestly notice most of the graphical features? I appreciate them, but frankly I wouldn't lose sleep if Episode 3 looked exactly like Episode 1 & 2. It's an add-on, I don't expect graphical updates.

          Valve should focus on the content, forget forcing the source engine to stretch as far as the eye can see. They'll never be Crysis quality, so really just deal with what you have and give us years of HL goodness without the wait times.

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        October 14, 2008 9:29 AM

        If you want to understand why it takes so long, play the game with the commentary.

        The amount of work that goes into the most incidental details in the game in order to deliver the best possible experience is crazy.

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          October 14, 2008 9:41 AM

          I did play ep1 with it and while it sounds like these guys love gaming, they put a little too much stock in their research. While it may have taken them months to get HDR "just right" or perfect the spot to place that healthkit - they still have the same tired gunplay and AI issues. Why not fix those? The commentary only serves to prove one thing to me - Valve are perfectionists of the highest calibre. They OCD on many areas (which is a good thing) but leave others untouched.

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            October 14, 2008 10:26 AM

            but the AI in episode 2 is vastly improved from their previous games. look at the hunters, for example. they're not super-smart, but no AI is just due to the complexity of that kind of AI. the gameplay is the same because it's still Half-Life 2. if you don't enjoy that I guess there's not much you can do about it but they are just keeping it in line with the series. also the games take place one after the other so it's not like they could really introduce some major change without it seeming out of place. and on top of that they're not meant to be entirely new games, they're meant to be extensions of Half-Life 2.

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              October 14, 2008 10:32 AM

              yes, they've established the tech - they are tweaking it, and adding small subtle changes to it. I don't expect much to change in that regard. The longer they keep using source - the more people will be able to pick it up and play it.

              The bigger thing though is that they are fully fleshing out their story arcs. While this may be a relatively easy process for script writers, movie makers, and novelists - it isn't for an established IP that is fully interactive. There's a lot of shit that needs to go into these things. Sure you could hire a bazillion monkeys to go to town on content creation - but when they move on (which they always do when you have a bazillion monkeys running around) and you want to go back and tweak shit - it's a pain in the ass.

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        October 14, 2008 9:29 AM

        If you ever get a chance to read 'Half-Life 2: Raising The Bar', you get an appreciation for the processes they follow to make a game, which I dare are are the most well thought out in the business.

        I think that Valve approaches making their games like they are making a movie, except...

        1. Except the set-pieces (maps) are constantly changing and evolving, not just to suit the story but to suit better gameplay...

        2. The technology to make your " game movie" is always being pushed for better realism etc. whereas you can make a movie the same way they did in the '70s...

        3. And the main characters are not pre-existing actors they hire, but digital people they create from scratch with personalities and back stories (they put way more thought into this than you might think)

        4. And you actually get to interact with this movie.

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        October 14, 2008 9:32 AM

        It's because they are spending too much time swimming in their money vault.

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        October 14, 2008 9:38 AM

        [deleted]

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        October 14, 2008 9:53 AM

        ...think Star Wars.

        Even better, think the first three - IV, V, VI.

        Those weren't released within months of each other, each had it's own time, place, and plot and production cycle. You could watch any of those and be fulfilled. I have the same feeling when playing through HL2, ep1, and ep2.

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          October 14, 2008 9:55 AM

          And they were what? Two hours tops? The exact same every time you rewatched them? Gamers are such whiners.

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            October 14, 2008 10:22 AM

            Yes, you are correct in that regard - but so is the storyline of each HL title - sure you can do things slightly differently during the course of the game- but the overall narrative is unchanged, and you are not given a choice in where to take the story. It's very linear in that regard. The only thing you can choose is how you want to fill in any of the blanks with some imagination (or fan fiction), thus it's still enjoyable that you are the silent protagonist.

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        October 14, 2008 10:17 AM

        If Episode 3 has such an epic finale as Episode 2 did then I welcome whatever length of time it takes to make it.

        And Doug Lombardi said recently that in retrospect using the word Episode might not have been the best idea.

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          October 14, 2008 10:48 AM

          Isn't episode 3 supposed to be the end of Half-Life 2. After that they move on to Half-Life 3 correct. Plus, All the games just sort of ended. Not that I'm complaining, I love them. I was just stating.

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        October 14, 2008 11:56 AM

        Well, console support for Ep1/Ep2 is probably a good reason. Also, i enjoyed Ep2 way more than Ep1, so I also consider that a good reason.

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      October 14, 2008 9:37 AM

      I'll admit it: I'm not that excited about Half-Life anymore :/

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      October 14, 2008 9:43 AM

      Can't wait. Oh wait, i guess I can - and have to. Still though, it will be worth it.

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      October 14, 2008 12:52 PM

      I don't think I can go back to an FPS without iron sights. I know there's a mod, but the models are pretty shitty.

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