Morning Discussion
First, those in North America should be able to find Dead Space in stores tomorrow. I think it's worth a look, as I came away impressed, and a little scared.
Second, we're one day closer to Friday, which, coincidentally, is when my Xbox 360 comes back from ye olde repair shop. Come home soon darling, I miss you :(
Oh, and if you're one of those Diablo fans, you pretty much need to check out the mind-boggling display of Diablo 3 information that Nick has compiled in his Diablo 3: What We Know So Far preview.
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http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/10/14/valve-drop-hints-about-episode-three/
New Half Life 2: Episode 3 info.-
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I like this comment:
That’s because we’ll be playing as Chell. Gordon will be playable only as a bonus unlockable (Gordon’s Combine Advisor Petting Zoo) which you get for completing an extended and deeply irritating rhythm game that involves shooting a stream of multicolored headcrabs that explode in musical rhythm with G-Man’s erratic diction attempting to wrestle with Girls Aloud’s greatest hits.
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nobody really does. it's very, very difficult to do it. I can tell you that in order to get a shorter/cheaper game out on a strict schedule you need a lot of people willing to bust their asses. when you are doing a console release it's even more difficult because release dates depend on the game passing through certification, which can often times take two weeks. the more complex your game is, the more stuff there is to worry about, and the more time it takes to actually build something.
if Valve wanted some kind of strict six-month schedule they would have to pretty much make all three episodes at the same time and then stagger the release dates. and then that would prevent them from getting feedback from anyone since the upcoming episodes would effectively be done. one of the reasons episode 2 was so improved over episode 1 (which was a vast improvement over HL2) is because of user input.
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Well, HL2 took six years and is about 12 hours long..each of these episodes is 5-6 hours. Ep 1 came out two years after HL2 and Ep2 one year after that? 18 months after? Considering each episode is a standalone experience that is expertly paced they are actually producing content at a faster pace than during the HL2 development.
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the engine has a lot of changes between HL2 and Ep1, which is why it took so long. also there are some reused assets but there are still a large number of new assets. and anyway building assets like textures and models isn't the most time consuming part of making a game, it's building all the maps, and then texturing and tweaking them and testing them and tweaking them and all the scripting which needs to be very thoroughly tested. both of those things undergo constant changes and adjustments and Valve is very, very picky about testing and tweaking their games (especially the episodes) so the development time isn't really anything absurd given their high standard of quality.
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What is your definition of gameplay - and what would you want to see done differently?
HL2 went from phsyics, to gunplay, to driving, to physics - ep1 went did the same thing, but in reverse, but it added flashlight ai assist with Alyx popping the zombies that you aimed your flashlight at.
EP2 was more of the same but they added a new method for taking down Striders using a combination of physics and gunplay (one could say it's no different than tossing red barrels and mines) but it was still something new.
It also added an amazing sequence of being chased by the antlions in the tunnels (INTENSE moment when those fuckers are RIGHT on your heels - and you just manage to duck into a smaller tunnel a moment before getting a giant antlion leg shoved up your ass).
And to top it off it gave you a new environment to stroll around it, plus new baddies to tackle. And you couldn't fight the Hunters the same as you fought the combine or striders. They were far more aggressive and harder to take down. -
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Agreed - Crytek pushes technology - but their games are shitty not as good, overall, in comparison to the experience and story created at Valve.
And there's a lot of things that changed between ep1 and ep2 - they tweaked the lighting engine (added casting of dynamic shadows iirc) and they added in the cinematic physics. Plus the time that it must take to design, build, compile, test, tweak, re-compile, test, etc, etc every level is astronomical.
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It takes that long because it's fucking Valve and they are possibly the best developer of games on the planet, and they polish everything to perfection, playtest, iterate, and don't release until they're ready.
Do you think they take so long to release these episodes because of incompetence or mis-management? It's because they are perfectionists. -
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A good game, but not great, and lacked much of the depth that Valve generated with HL. Sure there were some great scripted moments, but it was so damn short that it failed to generate much in terms of great gaming moments.
If you're all about paying full price for very short games that come out on time, okay.
I'm not. Give me lots of content and an experience that I will remember for longer than your 3 hour romp. -
Gearbox is a great company, and they are usually really good about meeting deadlines... that said they have yet to make anything that is the caliber of the Half-Life episodes. There's really nobody I would want to make the Half-Life games. I mean who cares if they get delayed, they are awesome.
Also that said, they never announced a release for Episode 3, so it's not like they are late at all this time. They haven't given any concrete info about it at all except that it will probably be out in late 2009 and even that was mainly based on speculation and guessing.-
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I have no clue, but they were later quoted as saying that they guessed wrong and that they changed their mind on episodic. so you can continue to pick and choose quotes from back from before episode 1 was released but the fact remains that they have never promised a six-month release schedule since the delay of episode 1.
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I don't *get* Valve. I understand fully what took HL2 so long - it was epic and a vastly different game from HL1. Episode 1 took awhile because they probably didn't start up right away. However episode 2 took forever for no good reason, there was simply nothing there to justify that kind of timeframe. The episodes are like polished mods, they are different levels and new scenarios. I fail to understand why that takes 2+ years to finish.
I mean yes we all want Episode 3, but it really bothers me that we won't see it for another year or so and when we do it's going to be over in like 4-5 hours with a cliffhanger ending. Doesn't that annoy the fuck out of anyone else? I mean remove that blasted "episodic" tag - these are expansions plain and simple.-
"No good reason"? You didn't notice that there were those other games Team Fortress 2 and Portal packed in there? For all I know, you may not have enjoyed those games so that reason might not be satisfying to you personally, but it's certainly a good reason. Valve had never shipped a simultaneously multiplatform game before, and had certainly never released multiple entirely separate games the same day, let alone three of them. For a studio of Valve's size and for a studio that generally develops at the pace Valve does, that was a pretty significant achievement.
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No no, you misunderstood. I know all about the orange box bundle. However I don't believe forcing Episode 1 customers to buy that box was a good move. Tell me why Episode 2 couldn't be released a whole year sooner on it's own for $20 versus being bundled? Why couldn't they just bundle TF2 and Portal?
To me I never liked the way they slid those games together like that. I'm sure we all were grateful for forcing Portal down our necks (because lord knows I might never have bought it and had as much fun with it otherwise) but I didn't want TF2.
Make no mistake - the orange box only succeeded because it was valve. Had EA tried a stunt like that they'd have had their balls stepped on multiple times. Valve got away with it because we all assumed all three were quality, and thus worth the money. However delaying games just to make a bundle is not a good practice when you are preaching "episodic is the future" like Valve was.
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No mod is as polished as Episode 2. That was probably the finest FPS to come out in 2007.
They did things like add HDR, motion blur, and other technical features. They also revamped the driving physics and added large-scale outdoor vehicular battles.
Episode 2 only took 16 months. This isn't EA where they can pump out a new Madden in 12 months because 300 people are working on it.-
Episode 2 was good because it was HL2 + more of the same good story only in a tighter package. However don't forget much of what made that game amazing already existed as early as 2005. Did you honestly notice most of the graphical features? I appreciate them, but frankly I wouldn't lose sleep if Episode 3 looked exactly like Episode 1 & 2. It's an add-on, I don't expect graphical updates.
Valve should focus on the content, forget forcing the source engine to stretch as far as the eye can see. They'll never be Crysis quality, so really just deal with what you have and give us years of HL goodness without the wait times.
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I did play ep1 with it and while it sounds like these guys love gaming, they put a little too much stock in their research. While it may have taken them months to get HDR "just right" or perfect the spot to place that healthkit - they still have the same tired gunplay and AI issues. Why not fix those? The commentary only serves to prove one thing to me - Valve are perfectionists of the highest calibre. They OCD on many areas (which is a good thing) but leave others untouched.
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but the AI in episode 2 is vastly improved from their previous games. look at the hunters, for example. they're not super-smart, but no AI is just due to the complexity of that kind of AI. the gameplay is the same because it's still Half-Life 2. if you don't enjoy that I guess there's not much you can do about it but they are just keeping it in line with the series. also the games take place one after the other so it's not like they could really introduce some major change without it seeming out of place. and on top of that they're not meant to be entirely new games, they're meant to be extensions of Half-Life 2.
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yes, they've established the tech - they are tweaking it, and adding small subtle changes to it. I don't expect much to change in that regard. The longer they keep using source - the more people will be able to pick it up and play it.
The bigger thing though is that they are fully fleshing out their story arcs. While this may be a relatively easy process for script writers, movie makers, and novelists - it isn't for an established IP that is fully interactive. There's a lot of shit that needs to go into these things. Sure you could hire a bazillion monkeys to go to town on content creation - but when they move on (which they always do when you have a bazillion monkeys running around) and you want to go back and tweak shit - it's a pain in the ass.
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If you ever get a chance to read 'Half-Life 2: Raising The Bar', you get an appreciation for the processes they follow to make a game, which I dare are are the most well thought out in the business.
I think that Valve approaches making their games like they are making a movie, except...
1. Except the set-pieces (maps) are constantly changing and evolving, not just to suit the story but to suit better gameplay...
2. The technology to make your " game movie" is always being pushed for better realism etc. whereas you can make a movie the same way they did in the '70s...
3. And the main characters are not pre-existing actors they hire, but digital people they create from scratch with personalities and back stories (they put way more thought into this than you might think)
4. And you actually get to interact with this movie.
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Yes, you are correct in that regard - but so is the storyline of each HL title - sure you can do things slightly differently during the course of the game- but the overall narrative is unchanged, and you are not given a choice in where to take the story. It's very linear in that regard. The only thing you can choose is how you want to fill in any of the blanks with some imagination (or fan fiction), thus it's still enjoyable that you are the silent protagonist.
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