Weekend Discussion: Until We Meet Again

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• **too where casual gaming is killing the market? : head crab
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  where has it ever had a huge learning curve. And no, System Shock 2 does not count. : shirif
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    a lot of multiplayer FPS games have/had huge learning curves to get good. : _jon
    • relatively. Now if you compare with rtses, the learning curve is flatter, shorter. : shirif
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    Tribes? : Crabs Jarrard
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      Original Rainbow Six? : Crabs Jarrard
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        I wouldn't call that steep. not at all, neither quake nor tribes or any other classic fpses. : shirif
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          If you think Tribes didn't have a steep learning curve you never played it. It took months, if not years ... : noxiousgg
          • Ohh man.. Tribes.. SHAZBOT! No, Yes, No, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, *drops det-pack and switches teams* Th... : HL3dsx
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            Again not what I would call a learning curve. More like repetition to master the correct timing and preci : shirif
            • I would argue that the former is a much more interesting kind of learning curve than the latter. Rote mem... : noxiousgg
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      tribes is a good example. Learning the disc thrower and skiing took a fair while. : Klebold
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        I got raped in that game the few times I played it. : Shai-Tan
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          when i was younger i would blame myself for being rubbish at games. With tribes i stuck at it and tried t... : Klebold
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            i was the same way, just played it because it was fun even though i sort of sucked. the difference, t... : Veegeezee
            • I miss the skill required in Tribes even if you got caught off guard you still had a shot at winning the ... : Blackdawgg
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        skiing was unintentional so I don't think it counts towards the design of the learning curve : RikiTiki2
        • What about Tribes 2, then - skiing was added intentionally in that, wasn't it? : Durajim
        • so was strafe jumping in quake, but it sure as hell added a whole lot of learning to the game(s) : synapse19
  • #5448

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    By: InfoBiter x Show Full Post

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    Unreal **, Quake **, CS **, the original Call of Duty, Wolf: ET, and many other games had very brutal and very large learning curves.
    
    You put a novice in the same room with a pro in any one of those games and it turned into a giant slaughterfest. I'm not talking about some guy who doesn't know what wasd is vs fatal1ty or some bullshit either. Just a novice to the game with a basic understanding of FPS games and a guy who's put a significant amount of time improving at the specific game. That kind of shit just doesn't happen anymore. There are tons of handicaps, unlocks, perks, and other aspects of the games to effectively boost the novices ability to succeed and put a ceiling on the "pro"s ability to dominate.

    Jun 27, 2010 1:01am PDT
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    Unreal **, Quake **, CS **, the original Call of Duty, Wolf: ET, and many other games had very brutal and... : InfoBiter
    • remindes me of my first game online ever... Quake2. I was useing the keyboard to move around and typing t... : godm0de
    • Agreed, though developers went that way because persistence was more addictive and profitable. It's sad ... : the archvile
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      Yes, but once you learned how FPS worked the learning curves were drastically reduced. : Fred Garvin
      • Also, there is a big difference between the learning curve needed to play and the time put into a game to... : Fred Garvin
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    Quake : Godhatesfatpeople
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      http://www.own3d.tv/video/10284/This_is_Quake_3 : Godhatesfatpeople
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        Some of the mid-air rockets are incredible. : ShekkyBoy
        • Yeah, Q3 hit that sweet spot in my brain. Railing and rocket killing people in mid-air was so satisfying. : Godhatesfatpeople
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        God this makes me miss playing this for 10 hours a day. I was so fucking good, still pissed I quit playi... : HL3dsx
        • Me too. I think match making destroys the sense of community quake servers had. I played on the same serv... : chungathebunga
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          Q3 is the one game that constantly does this to me. Anytime I see a video for it I want to play it that i... : Godhatesfatpeople
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            Yeah soon as I heard the rocket launcher fire my memories all came back. Damn fun times lol. : HL3dsx
            • Indeed :) : Godhatesfatpeople
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        You know a game's weapons are designed well when the pros only use 2 of them. This is why I always dis... : OverloadUT
        • You should watch some modern competitive quake 3 matches. That is not how it is whatsoever. : mwasher
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          i don't think you've ever really played quake if you think it's just a 2 gun game : synapse19
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            I've played quake quite a bit; I just don't like the weapons at all : OverloadUT
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              i dont see how you not liking the weapons has anything to do with you saying people only use 2 of them : synapse19
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                In most of my experience with Quake, people used the rocket launcher and rail gun 90% of the time : OverloadUT
                • then if that was your experience, to put it frankly, you played against people that must've been pretty b... : synapse19
                • You know if you had said "people used the rocket launcher lightning gun and rail gun 90% of the time" I m... : InfoBiter
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              The weapons and movement were always the best parts of that series, unlike floaty UT and it's underwhelmi... : ieGod
              • Indeed. The balanced weapons in Quake 3 are the standard for which all competetive fps are measured. : Pneum0
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        perfect video : head crab
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          I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I love that shit (hell I still play Quakelive on an almost daily basi... : InfoBiter
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            Pubstars? Cooller is in that video along with other Q3 pro's. : Godhatesfatpeople
            • there was barely any pro footage in that at all : synapse19
        • http://www.own3d.tv/video/10357/mercurial : synapse19
  • Trespasser : Sailor of Fortune
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    System Shock 1 Vigilance You know, pretty much stuff that either came out before modern control conve... : roushimsx
    • precisely, thanks :) : shirif
  • WWII Online : c0bra
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    Hardcore sims like OpFlash/ARMA are goddamn impenetrable to the average person. : rudds
    • What I love about OpFlash is that the on-foot stuff is pretty detailed and simish, but the instant you ho... : roushimsx
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  ARMA2? : crummynz
  • This. It's very fun but you've got an uphill battle getting a grip on everything. : grover69
  • ^^ people hate it when they actually build them (I loved OFP and ARMA was a bit of a misfire, waiting on ... : 60days
  • I love Spec Ops in Arma 2. : Derringer
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  The gaming industry went pop music, and when their careers are over and it's time for retirement, all the... : Marrbe
  • L O fuckin' L : dopefish
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    compare bioshock to quake 2 and your argument falls apart. : Klebold
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      i.e. quake is the old franchise which keeps getting remade, despite being pretty shitty and increasingly ... : Klebold
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        I'd rather bring up SS2, DX and Thief. : Marrbe
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          true that bro...oh wait those all either got or is getting a sequel or spiritual successor : spiderfill
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            my point exactly! : Klebold
            • if only the sequels and spiritual successors weren't dumb bimbos compared to the originals, this point of... : SpaecKow
      • I doubt marrbe likes bioshock very much, considering it skewers his whole worldview. : chrisschutz
    • Bioshock blows, they didn't even get the mouse look right. Give me a break. : Pneum0
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    The people who sign the checks don't give a shit about creating art. : rudds
    • i cant wait until billionaire kids start commissioning video games : spiderfill
    • Not uniformly true. But being that they have to be concerned with having the money to actually back those : Ebu
• I found the learning curve in the Quake games to be very steep. But I was just getting into PC FPS gaming... : code-e255
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  Commercial viability of niche products is primarily a function of the cost of creation. (Or tolerance for... : mockery
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    Or hardcore gamers become willing to pay for their games the way Ferrari drivers pay for their cars. : Marrbe
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      I would pay maybe 800 dollars for a TIE Fighter remake. Does that count? : chrisschutz
      • If you can get a couple of tens of thousand of players to do the same, regularly, sure. Or if you'd buy i... : Marrbe
• I hope so; it would be very nice =D With that said, even if it does happen it most certainly won't be ... : InfoBiter
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  It''s nice to see FPS move back towards "bullets go where I point" gunplay like back in the RTCW days. Th... : Cliffzorz
  • I remember when CS was more like that before beta 5 I think. COD4 pretty much copied counter-strike but u... : Shai-Tan
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  You mean you don't like all the flashing text on your screen and giant arrows telling you to "go here!"? ... : Godhatesfatpeople
  • PRESS A TO START 3-SECOND ANIMATION : Matt Burris
  • pretty much hehe. : head crab
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  If CPL had been run by someone competent, sure. I think that was the last US oppurtunity. Even QL is bigg... : anhero
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    I agree with you there. : Godhatesfatpeople
    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv_kpRpwelw : anhero
• I remember in Quake 2, there were certain moves, jumps, and tricks of the trade to win consistently. The... : Matt Burris
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  Does S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and its sequels count? : Dave-A
  • They didn't really have that much of a learning curve, they just gave you the opportunity to fuck yoursel... : roushimsx
  • I died a lot in the STALKER games. They count. Not much else is that brutal these days TBH. : ihya
  • The only learning curve STALKER had was learning which guns never to use because they couldn't hit the br... : DerHuhnTeufel
  • I think of STALKER as an obstacle trying not to get fucked in the ass by the game. : melt_core
  • Yea, STALKER counts. : Milleh
• u should fight me in mw2 or bfbc2 : spiderfill
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  why the hell would you want a steep learning curve on a FPS? you point and you shoot. sure, there i... : X-GOUKI
  • It's sad that this could seem like a reasonable statement on shooters now. Modern military-FPS games have... : Felraiser
  • no more like point and curse because your gun broke or its wildly inaccurate or bullets are made of rubbe... : spiderfill
  • rpg stuff is one kind of learning curve, but twitchy FPS games had a totally different kind of curve to t... : Veegeezee
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    he said SS2 didn't count : RikiTiki2
    • boh, it was shirif that said that : RikiTiki2
• Hop onto a cod or halo match against seasoned players : EvilDolemite
• Dust 514.. maybe. It is CCP after all. : JuffoWup
• I think you're mistaking learning curve for skill and complexity of gaming. Take fighters for example. ... : barcibus
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  When did FPS games ever have a learning curve? : freakynipples69
  • They never did. This post is weird. : the city
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  The casual always the whole thing. :( : dfay
  • you forgot your verb : RikiTiki2
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  this is why you need to play CS:s or some other top notch multiplayer fps (not cod crap..) and force your... : wimpy1
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    are you saying there can't be better people than you at "cod crap?" : RikiTiki2
    • no, but the learning curve tends to lose its curve a year from release when no one plays it anymore. if... : wimpy1
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    Is that what he's talking about? Just adversarial gameplay? I think that has as much to do with how many ... : Fred Garvin
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      i guess hes not clear about what hes looking for.. personally, I cant wait for Portal 2 because I see ... : wimpy1
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        Learning how Portal worked wasn't that hard and I can see the sequel being the same. Easy to learn, hard ... : Fred Garvin
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          thats at least my understanding of learning curve.. the first time I played doom i didnt know what i was ... : wimpy1
          • Right and that's my point. Anyone that cut their teeth on old school FPS games isn't going to have a mass... : Fred Garvin
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  Where exactly would the large learning curve be? A radical new control system that will most likely fail ... : Fred Garvin
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    For now, the developers can only seem to come up with turning the game into an MMORPG, which in my opinio... : the archvile
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      So, how do you add more depth? We've already added story, classes, unlocks, co-op, a myriad of game types... : Fred Garvin
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        better AI. its hard to do, but is the best way to make an fps more enjoyable. : wimpy1
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          AI is an industry wide problem, not limited to shooters. Even then, I prefer a combination of well script... : Fred Garvin
          • while thats true, an action/adventure type game can make up for poor AI with other challenges, things lik... : wimpy1
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            Agreed, AI has to be the weakest component of almost all games that come out. It's something that's real... : the archvile
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              or they just let the AI cheat and have wallhacks and all that crap :( : wimpy1
              • That falls under the "not modeled well" category, where the programmers didn't model human behavior and l... : the archvile
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        I don't know; maybe some concept that hasn't been tried before, or hasn't been really prominent. Either ... : the archvile
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          isnt the alternative a skill based game though? I often play CS:s on servers that give max money every ro... : wimpy1
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            By going onto the CS:S servers that give max money, you're altering the rules of the game so you can sele... : the archvile
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              ...which, in a way, is kinda fun, and most CS:S matches without players focused on the objectives devolve... : the archvile
              • yea, honestly theres 2 servers i play on.. both have a pretty good group of regulars.. one has max mone... : wimpy1
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    A complex game where you are using two mice as input, each controlling an arm. Foot pedals also to contr... : Goto10
    • QWOP Extreme? : the archvile
    • Sounds like Robot Alchemic Drive. : mindmann
• preamble: probably not. but overall, how do you mean? in-game complexity like weapon repairs and upg : Downforce
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  I think the last one that really tried for some depth was ET:Quake Wars -- and look how well that sold. S... : pixelat3d
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    ET:QW had the unfortunate release date of Holiday 2007, where it was jumbled together with CoD4, Crysis, ... : the archvile
    • Also TF2. That was a tough time to release a complex shooter. : Mansmells
    • I don't know. The latest Brink gameplay videos I saw makes it look incredibly boring. : Godhatesfatpeople
  • Exactly this, 40% whined that it wasn't an engine/gfx update to W:ET another 40% didn't like that it trie... : CurbDog
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  Go play Quake live for that - www.quakelive.com As for the above noobs talking about CS:S.... that gam... : hobohun7er
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    I want to see OSP and RA come back. I've always wanted CRT to do a proper RA mod using something like TF2... : Godhatesfatpeople
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      TF2 already has a RA mod, it's called arena and it sucks. : alias
      • Arena is fine. But I want to see a basic setup like RA. With the same weapon and map vote system. Perks a... : Godhatesfatpeople
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  Play in competitive leagues for whatever game you want to play. There is your learning curve. : alias
  • you mean low grav instagib ffa isn't the top of the food chain?! : synapse19
• I want an FPS with the learning curve of EVE Online. : Volatus32x
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  I'd like an FPS made for thinking adults. Thank you very much. : vx2o
  • Like what, a turn based FPS? : alias
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    are there anythinking adults here who could help? nope i dont see any around here : spiderfill
    • There's always at least 2.5, say the statistics. : vx2o
  • Research and Development mod for HL2 might fit the bill. : u sir name
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    every single time I see a game touted as this, it has RPG elements. Why is "add RPG elements" always the... : the archvile
    • You also find out that these "RPG elements" are just weak installations of item customization and very wa... : Godhatesfatpeople
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      Because Adults are considered to have shitty reaction time, aim, and ability to actually play games in re... : InfoBiter
      • (original rainbow six) : synapse19
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  Can you elaborate on this? What would the "large learning curve" consist of? : Porkasaurus
  • It doesn't even make sense. : Chod
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    MP games. Quake, UT, CS.... : head crab
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      None of those have a steep learning curve. They are all easy to learn, hard to master games. : Chod
      • I was thinking the same thing...I'm not sure he used the term correctly. You could argue CS has a ste... : Porkasaurus
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      I still don't understand what you are trying to get at. Explain the specific elements you want to see. B... : Porkasaurus
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        I think he's referring to the more pronounced difference between 'learning the game' and being good at th... : InfoBiter
        • Ah ok, I think you did a better job at guessing what he meant than I did. See that is an interesting t... : Porkasaurus
  • ^^^^^^^^^^ has never played starseige tribes : HisKillSkill
  • Have you ever played WQOP? Think that but in 3d. : CrustaR
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  I've been playing Modern Warfare 2 online. I like it a lot now that I'm on my twenties (rank). When I s... : doomed
  • To each their own =D I appreciate what your saying and respect it ... but I for one am as far on the o... : InfoBiter
• I think you're confusing a steep learning curve with a game that has enough depth and reliance on persona... : DinK
• Quite honestly, I'd like to see less FPS-style games. The market has moved too far in that direction, IM... : genom