Morning Discussion

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  So is this going to allow Apple to go after Microsoft for building that touch table thing? : MagicWishMonkey
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    That's what I'm wondering... but I think their first target is going to be the Palm Pre. : mwasher
    • yeah palm is fucked, but I wonder if sprint is going to get involved in defending palm. : stgdz
  • id love to see that happen haha : Jackass1233
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    if anything just require a fee. Surface tech as far as I know is not being sold anywhere right now. Howev... : two50six
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      Surface tables are out and you can get them from MS. We have one on order. : pancake humper
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        ah. I dont work on that team so I've no clue. : two50six
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          Ours has been on order for awhile now :( not sure WTF is going in with it. I wish I was more directly inv... : pancake humper
          • I played with one at the AETC Symposium in San Antonio a couple of weeks ago. It was cool. : capt tripps
  • Doubt it, the surface isnt a screen, its a surface that the image is projected onto and I think it uses c... : Beady
• the apple peripheral monopoly has only begun to take shape : Downforce
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  They filed it less than a year ago and plenty of other companies have demonstrated multi-touch before the... : omnova
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    This is a good question. Doesn't 'prior art' apply here? Or do companies have to challenge this patent? : Ariakus
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      This question does not make much sense. It is a patent now, there is a presumption that it is valid, but... : Jimb0v2
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        Shouldn't patent office prevent the grant of such patent if prior art exists? Isn't that their job? : Ariakus
        • In some form yes, but in reality they are woefully understaffed and overworked. Nor do they often have e... : boofy
  • This application claims priority going back farther than 1 year ago. : Jimb0v2
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  How can you claim rights to "touching a screen with more than one finger" lol :( : virus
  • they just did. : two50six
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    I'm sure they'll be quite touchy about it. : capt tripps
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      The downfall of the digitals age : azenmaster
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        Microsoft forced me to touch them inappropriately :( : capt tripps
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          I'm getting the impression that this be bad for a lot of companies. : stelth
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            I think microsoft has enough lawyers and enough interest in the matter for the situation to work itself o... : capt tripps
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              I dont get it : azenmaster
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                Microsoft hired the guy that did all the cool multitouch stuff and even sells multi-touch tables. One ta... : capt tripps
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                  where is the pun though? I thought that this was the pun subthread : azenmaster
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                    Stelth what the FUCK. : heartsauce
                    • what? : azenmaster
        • I would flip them a finger. >:( : Maddog_Delphi97
  • *HATE* : trevis
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    its actually "detecting one or more finger contacts with the touch screen display" so even one finger is ... : boring gegtik
    • What the fuck would you do with a 'touch screen display' besides detect 'one or more finger contacts'. : capt tripps
  • Sigh. People do not understand patent law. While I have not reviewed this in detail, it wouldn't suprri... : Jimb0v2
• haha did that article just refer to Apple as a 'fruity toymaker'? fucking inquirer : mikecyb
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  Why are patents like this allowed :( Only the exact implementation should be patentable, not the concept... : Richese
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    You can't rely on these general summaries. If only the exact implementation was patentable the patent ... : Jimb0v2
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      It wouldn't be worthless because whatever clever means you've come up with for solving the problem you've... : Richese
      • I don't think you have thought this through. Who determines what is a generic idea? Why shouldn't a gen... : Jimb0v2
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  I doubt this patent would hold up for long if they ever tries to defend it. : uncleanmonkey
  • I hope Palm and MS go after them immediately. : Richese
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  That's going to hold up for all of about .02 seconds in a court. How long have touchscreens been around ... : itsjames
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    It's not touch screens, it's multi-touch capable screens. : ieGod
    • It's deriviative and clearly follows from the problem - not patentable. The patent office is a joke. How ... : uncleanmonkey
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      haven't multi-touch laptop mouse touchpads had this for ages too though? I'm not sure how you would diff... : itsjames
      • I'm not saying it's legitimate, I'm just pointing out the difference. I think apple was one of the first ... : ieGod
    • It fails the "obviousness" test. Hmm, we have multitouch pads. And we have touchscreens. I wonder what... : Arcanum
  • Uh, they did not get a patent on a touch screen. : Jimb0v2
• They really need to touch with two fingers, hold both of them down, and expand to see the bigger picture ... : spiderfill
• http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.h... : mojorisen1117
• Just wait til Minority Report sues them! : DapperDan
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  I don't understand this. According to the Internets, the first multitouch display was created in 1982 by... : Richese
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    but was it patented? : two50six
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      Does that matter? I thought that prior art trumps any patent. : Richese
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        huh? no I dont believe so. Then again Im not a patent lawyer. But just because you create something doesn... : two50six
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          Prior art (also known as state of the art, which also has other meanings), in most systems of patent law, : AgentPothead
          • ah interesting. Well did I mention I wasnt a patent lawyer? ;) Dont know much about the specifics for pat... : two50six
        • It doesn't mean you automatically get the patent, just that nobody else can patent it. : uncleanmonkey
        • We're still on a first-to-invent system, but there's been a big push lately to go first-to-file, which IM... : Perturbation
• That is patently ridiculous! : Bruzilla
• WTFPATENTOFFICE? I seem to remember academic examples years before we heard about the Touch. : Fred Garvin
• What would Steve Jobs corpse do? : Godhatesfatpeople
• LOL. I can't wait for the Palm/Apple fight. They'll prior art their way back to the Newton and before. : Fyunch Click
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  All computer programming is math. It blows my mind people think you can patent math. : AgentPothead
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    Math is not allowed to be patented. : Jimb0v2
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      Then explain software patents to me please :) : AgentPothead
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        software patents are very generalized and almost never refer to a specific algorithm. it's always just s... : mikecyb
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          Isn't generalized exactly what a patent is NOT supposed to be? : AgentPothead
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            they're specific enough that it's obviously a single thing but not specific enough that it's super easy t : mikecyb
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              Eh, people in this thread have not read the claims. It could turn out that its that simple, but I highly... : Jimb0v2
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                Give me $500 an hour and I'll do it for you. : ra1n
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                  I take it your a patent attorney too? : Jimb0v2
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                    I actually am a patent attorney, yes. Are you? : ra1n
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                      Yes sir. : Jimb0v2
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                        Oh, cool beans. What area of the country are you in? I'm the North East. I'm currently working on an a... : ra1n
                        • Midwest. I'm in the middle of converting a provisional appliation,... I am going to get back to work so ... : Jimb0v2
        • If we accept this as true (which I'm not sure I would) . I still think the problem everyone has is that ... : Jimb0v2
        • The LZW patent would like to have a word with you. Well it would, if it wasn't expired : GloriousCow
        • one click was struck down iirc : retarded talking dinosaur
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        The law as it stands is pretty confusing. But the gist of it is that subject matter is eligible for pate... : Jimb0v2
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          At it's most basic level computer programming is nothing more than math. Why is 2+2=4 not patentable, but... : AgentPothead
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            There are two seperate issues here: Is it patentable subject matter? Is it novel and nonobvious (ie i... : Jimb0v2
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              That's the thing, so many computer patents deal with discoveries, not inventions. In fact you could ma... : uncleanmonkey
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                Like what? The one-click patent is not a discovery. It is an invention. Granted, many people (perhap... : Jimb0v2
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                  I gave an example before: Marching cubes. I had to sit on my hands for two months waiting for the patent ... : uncleanmonkey
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                    There is no disagreement from me that some patents get allowed that shouldn't. I just don't think the ... : Jimb0v2
                    • I didn't say so, but IMO software patents fall in three categories 1) Obvious patents that clearly fol... : uncleanmonkey
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              ^^^inf this. This is the correct answer, not the speculation or argument of people saying what the law *... : ra1n
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                Dude, the discussion is ABOUT what people think the law SHOULD be, not what it is. If you're arguing abou... : uncleanmonkey
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                  I was directly asked what the law was, so was Jimb0v2. He explained it pretty clearly. : ra1n
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                    By explain software patents I meant why can you not patent math and yes patent math. : AgentPothead
                    • "and yeT patent math." spallchuk, wut. : AgentPothead
                    • And the answer is, you cannot patent a mathematical principle. In many circumstances, you can patent a d... : ra1n
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            Go learn the law. There is actually a reason. : ra1n
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              You are the patent attorney, I was asking you to explain it not simply cop out with, oh go learn it yours... : AgentPothead
              • You can read the MPEP. : ra1n
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          A software algorithm isn't tied to a particular machine or apparatus, neither is hardware. I don't think ... : uncleanmonkey
          • Plus, consider the whole purpose of patents. I'm pretty sure it wasn't intended to stifle innovation - qu... : uncleanmonkey
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            Hardware is not tied to a particular machine? Boggle!!! I don't think there is any disagreement on the... : Jimb0v2
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              What exactly did apple patent if they didn't patent "a mathematical algorithm in software or hardware"? T... : AgentPothead
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                a process? : Jimb0v2
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                  So they patented an algorithm? In mathematics, computing, linguistics and related subjects, an algorithm : AgentPothead
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                    Process patents have been around forever. There is a difference in the law between a process and a mathe... : Jimb0v2
                    • Is there some legal patentspeak defintion of a "process" that doesn't mean "a sequence of finite instruct... : AgentPothead
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              Hardware implementations of algorithms aren't tied to a specific machine, as they can be replicated as pa... : uncleanmonkey
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                You lost me. The way I see it, if you come up with a process for doing something, it should be patenta... : Jimb0v2
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                  What if that process is "a method for reasoning about uncertainty"? Now you've just patented probability ... : uncleanmonkey
                  • It would be a good topic for a paper. The difference between a process and a mathematical algorithm. As... : Jimb0v2
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                    99% of the time, stuff like that gets lumped into a larger overall invention that does something with the... : ra1n
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                      Doesn't matter if you're still not allowed to use the discovered mathematical properties that were patent... : uncleanmonkey
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                        What do you mean? : ra1n
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                          I mean that if you build a machine that's based entirely on mathematical property X, and others are preve... : uncleanmonkey
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                            The idea is that you can't patent a device that precludes the use of the underlying scientific principal ... : ra1n
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                              Yes, I gave one ealier: Marching cubes. It really just patents the geometrical properties of a cube inte... : uncleanmonkey
                              • What's the patent number on this, I want to check that out. : ra1n
    • That was his point. : uncleanmonkey
    • that's why Einstein got away with it. : sharpie
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    All mechanical devices are just physics. : SenorSpine
    • Damn, you stole my response. : ra1n
    • http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=19051899#itemanchor_19051899 : Richese
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      If the patent office had a rule of not patenting physics that might matter :) : AgentPothead
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        Uh, they do. : ra1n
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          Did they ever revoke that patent for swinging on a swing? : AgentPothead
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            You can't patent laws of nature. Physics is a law of nature. Make sense? : ra1n
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              But you just said all mechanical devices are physics, and you can't patent physics, and yet all mechanica... : AgentPothead
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                That was a joke making fun of your software is math line. : ra1n
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                  Hmm, what do you think computer software is if it isn't math? : AgentPothead
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                    Oh jesus christ. Pure mathematics is not computer science. I would argue that computer science is a way... : ra1n
                    • I agree with you they are exceptionally highly related. Hell, I have degrees in both. : ra1n
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                      That's great man, but if computer software isn't math what is it. You can't say something isn't something... : AgentPothead
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                        Do you even fucking read these posts? I said "I would argue that computer science is a way of implementi... : ra1n
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                          Well you guys made a joke after I said that software was math, implying that it isn't math, I was just wo... : AgentPothead
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                            software::math mechanical devices::physics : Jimb0v2
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                              Software IS math though, and if you don't think so I have to ask have you ever programmed anything more t... : AgentPothead
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                                I have a degree in computer science. : Jimb0v2
                                • So explain to me what a computer is doing when it runs software besides doing math. : AgentPothead
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                              Invalid analogy. More like physical reactions::physics. Can you patent that water boils when it's heated... : uncleanmonkey
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                                You can patent the processes required to lead to the boiling of water. Just as you can patent a collectio... : ieGod
                                • ^^ agree. Again, you cannot confuse patentability with patentable subject matter. The process that ... : Jimb0v2
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                                No, but I could patent some device that made water boil exceptionally fast, just like I can patent a soft... : ra1n
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                                  But the problem is that you can ALSO patent a mathematical property of geometry, so long as you claim it'... : uncleanmonkey
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                                    If you want to break down any device imaginable (based on physical mathematical models) you're going back... : ieGod
                                    • #3581

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                                      By: uncleanmonkey x Show Full Post

                                      Reply

                                      I think there is a difference though. In one case you're looking at a mathetmatical model and patenting the properties of it and things that directly follow (e.g. if you've modelled a blast furnace door, then the optimal way to open it follows directly from the mathematics - it's not an invention, it's just a property inherent in the problem), and in another case you're really building something new that didn't just fall out of the problem automatically.
                                      
                                      For example, if you want to minimize the surface to volume ratio in a container, then you have to make it a sphere. This isn't an invention, it's just a fact of geometry. Just because you make it a little more complicated doesn't mean it becomes less of a discovery of inherent properties, it's just harder for the reviewer to see that it's obvious, perhaps.
                                      
                                      Software just so happens to be mostly a matter of mathematically modelling things and exploiting the properties of the model, so that's why I find that discoveries outnumber inventions in software patents.

                                      Jan 27, 2009 1:48pm PST
                                      I think there is a difference though. In one case you're looking at a mathetmatical model and patenting t... : uncleanmonkey
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                                    Alright: "While a scientific truth, or the mathematical expression of it, is not patentable inventio... : ra1n
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                                      I know that the law allows this kind of bullshit, I'm just saying it's wrong on a moral level because in ... : uncleanmonkey
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                                        Sign, it's not. But if it makes you feel better to just say that over and over, go for it. Give me an e... : ra1n
                                        • I've given several examples in this thread already. : uncleanmonkey
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                                          He's given a bunch of examples but you'd rather reply to AgentPothead than uncleanmonkey :( : Richese
                                          • I need patent numbers or names, though. If you claim that pure scientific princples have been patented, ... : ra1n
                                  • You would make a great examiner. =) (I am not saying you are right or wrong) : Jimb0v2
                        • Computer science really is just a branch of mathetmatics though. Mostly logic. See lambda calculus. : uncleanmonkey
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                      Pure mathematics isn't computer science like a rectangle isn't a square. A square is still a rectangle th... : AgentPothead
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                        No pure mathematics isn't software like the English language isn't a poem. : SenorSpine
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                          But software is pure mathematics and a poem is the english language. : AgentPothead
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                            And you can copyright a poem and patent software : SenorSpine
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                              DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER. This is why I think software at most should be copyrightable :) : AgentPothead
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                                You can get a design patent on a cotton gin. Therefore it should not be patentable. I grant you that ... : Jimb0v2
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                                  Man, you can stay so much more calm. All I can think is idiot RAGE RAGE RAGE. : ra1n
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                                    Says the man who doesn't think computer software is math. : AgentPothead
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                                      That's like calling engineering math. They're based on mathematical principles but there's more to it tha : ieGod
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                                        Your computer is nothing but an adding machine. All it is doing is mathematical formula at very very high... : AgentPothead
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                                          You're missing the point. Software isn't math for the sake of math. It's an application of math for a par... : ieGod
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                                            He made up his mind and no amount of logic is going to sway him. He's shitting up this thread with stupi... : ra1n
                                            • Sorry but I'm not the one advocating software patents so I'm not sure how you can call me stupid. : AgentPothead
                                        • A chair is just metal, wood, and fabric. An ipod is just silicon, copper, plastic, glass, and non-conduc : walker270
                                      • Computer science IS just maths though. If you want to patent all the "fluff" around writing software (lik... : uncleanmonkey
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                                      Never change, please. : ra1n
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                                        For you ra1n I won't, I promise. And guys don't take it so seriously, I know I say a lot of retarded shit... : AgentPothead
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                                          It just makes me upset when I feel like I've wasted my time trying to explain something and it's wasted. : ra1n
                                          • We're on shacknews. Doesn't the very fact of being here signify our time is being wasted? :) : AgentPothead
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                                          The problem is you're not playing devil's advocate -- you're playing stupid. Playing devil's advocat... : walker270
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                                            I'm repeating the "same old line" that software is math, because it IS. I haven't seen a single person pr... : AgentPothead
                                            • Software is an application of math -- just like any disciplines relating to physics or non-biology based ... : walker270
                                          • Thank you, that was well-said. : ra1n
                              • You have no idea what you are talking about. Software and copyright are completely different. Copyright... : ra1n
                            • Can you patent, say, Hexameter? : uncleanmonkey
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                          Computer science is clearly a branch of mathematics. It all follows from Church's and others (mathematica... : uncleanmonkey
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                            distilled down into vbscript for code monkeys. : Antilles_Prime
                            • Well, sort of like how mathematics is distilled down to various tricks for everyday calculations. Algorit... : uncleanmonkey
                  • It's a seperate discipline completely. Is physics math just because there's math involved? : derelict515
                • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus Here's the first few words: "In mathematical logic and co... : uncleanmonkey
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      There's a pretty big difference though. Patenting the properties of cubes being intercepted by a surface ... : uncleanmonkey
      • To clarify: Try patenting maxwell's laws, for example. That would be a valid comparison. The argument aga... : uncleanmonkey
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    Also, all electronic devices are just examples a natural phenomenon. : ra1n
    • Not a good comparison : Richese
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      This was the debate when Morse tried to patent the telegraph. They ultimately decided a specific embodim... : ra1n
      • So, it's actually the precedent example, not just a good comparison. : ra1n
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  i remember nintendo trying to patent the same thing 2 years ago http://www.gamespot.com/news/6144971.... : dantastic
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    that's an entirely different patent :( : mikecyb
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      no, not really. : bagelcc
      • fine I read more than the first paragraph of the article >:( : mikecyb
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    Nintendo DID patent the D-Pad though : two50six
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      Which is why everyone else's D-Pad has sucked to this day. : lolpatrol
      • not anymore ! i think that patent just expired :D : qwpeoriu
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        The Playstation dpad is better, I think. : ieGod
        • crazy talk, the ps d-pad gets really uncomfortable for me if i'm using it for extended periods of time. m... : qwpeoriu
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          technically not a dpad though : two50six
          • True, but very effective. I didn't even realize it wasn't a single contiguous piece until someone mention... : ieGod
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          nothing to see here. this dude is a career PS-Troll : dantastic
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            Says the biased 360 owner with no sense. : ieGod
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              Said the spider to the fly : two50six
              • Except I have a 360 and enjoy it greatly, along with a Wii :( : ieGod
        • Actually it is pretty good. It's really just a + shaped D pad with some plastic covering up the center of... : Dynotaku
• Of course they did. They're players in a game. The game's rules are fucked, but of course the players s... : vigilante
• Considering how questionable business method and other non-physical patents are now legally, I doubt much... : Conan
• Man, that's bullshit. : chazums
• Should have just given them the patent for pinstripes : d fluke