Weekend Confirmed Episode 12

Just wanted to say that I started listening to the podcast. I was a constant listener of 1up yours/Listen Up and hearing this podcast brought a warm feeling over me. I had forgotten what was missing in my life.

The future of video games is 3D, of this I have absolutely no doubt. The reason is simple enough in my mind: at some level what every serious gamer really wants (and by extension those who turned a hobby into a career) is an experience similar to the Star Trek holodeck. I am reminded of this any time someone fawns over photo-realistic visual presentation - it stands to reason that the first step to realizing a fully interactive virtual experience one must master the art of producing a relatively simple 2D image. Reviewers, critics and gamers themselves are quick to throw out the word immersion as an aspect that ought to be lauded and what can be more immersive than living out a fantasy of being Sherlock Holmes by actually walking through his fictional world and directly interacting with it's denizens?

The trouble is, the current interpretation and indeed presentation of this technology is unlikely to succeed. I believe Jeff nailed this point quite nicely when he compared the current incarnation of 3D to the Laserdisc. He was correct in asserting that without the Laserdisc there would be no DVD. The technology developed for the Laserdisc (that is, optical storage) was leveraged in the creation of the CD and decades later the DVD. In spite of the success the technology eventually brought, it was a limited success at best, and the obvious question one might ask is "why" or perhaps "how does this relate to 3D technology".

The rest of the Podcast's participants voiced some very real complaints. Brian's assertion that it appears to be nothing more than a cash grab hit on the first real problem: in all probability your current home video hardware cannot present 3D content. Given that many people have only recently made the plunge into HD (and untold millions have still refused the transition) the odds that a significant portion of of the market will acquire the technology in the next several years is quite low, especially considering the equipment that can perform to the standards required by 3D tend to be the most costly example of an HD television at any given size. This is quite similar to the problem that Laserdisc faced: people had only just begun purchasing VCR's (the Laserdisc made it's commercial debut in December 1979, two years after the VHS VCR and four years before the CD made it's way to market). VCR's often offered a comparable audio and visual experience (especially if care was not taken in the mastering process) simply because most consumers did not possess the hardware necessary for the theoretical technical superiority to be noticeable. Thus, outside of niche markets (which oddly enough included Hong Kong), the technology floundered while it's offspring (The audio CD and later the DVD) eventually flourished and became the standard media used for the distribution of media for many years. Cost is almost certainly an issue - until the technology becomes common in homes the notion of accepting the risky endeavor of doing some new and interesting with the 3D concept will be unappealing to most.

Garnett and Adam neatly provided the rest of the story - asserting that they had never seen anything interesting done with the technology. Laserdisc had the same problem - while technically capable of superior audio and visual fidelity, without enormous expense in one's home theater (above and beyond the initial astronomic expense of the Laserdis player itself). The discs themselves often retailed at 100 USD (or more in some cases), the stereo sound would only be notable with actual stereo speakers (most TV's at the time only featured mono sound), and the increased clarity would only be noticed if one was very close to the screen or in possession of an unusually large display. In short, the average consumer did not see the merit of the technology which contributed to the low adoption rate which further reinforced the notion that it wasn't doing anything special.

But, like the Laserdisc, the current incarnation of 3D will likely serve as nothing more than a proof of concept in the eyes of the consumer. So long as the experience requires one to invest in a tremendously expensive television, a pricy (compared to a DVD player) BlueRay player, BlueRay media (which in my experience costs a full 50% more than the same movie on DVD at nearly 30 USD for a BlueRay versus 20 USD for a DVD), unreasonably expensive accessories (glasses, receivers, cables who's price implies they are forged from the wings of fairies and so forth) and will still only achieve a favorable result under a very narrow range of circumstances the concept will remain nothing more than a neat idea that adds little more than a bullet point on a box for most. Of course, thanks to the wonders of the market, inevitably this will force hardware manufacturers to improve the technology, making it cheaper (the most important step in encouraging adoption of a technology), easier to use (People generally don't seem to like the idea of owning an incredibly expensive piece of technology that the are incapable of setting up themselves and only barely able to operate), and eventually getting rid of the necessity of the accessory pile.

3D is indeed the future simply because the industry can't help but move in that direction, because the audience still loves the idea of the holodeck. The problem is, we aren't at a position where 3D actually matters. If this were a race, the cars would still have their tire warmers on and the fans would only just be trickling into the stadium from.

Garnett, I have to express how disappointed I am in you by your twittering you did all day today.

I have followed your podcasts for years now since I got my first Ipod 4 years ago and never once until today thought you favored one company or console over the others.

To see you putting Microsoft in third place when all Sony did was sell Move as an HD Wii, while Microsoft's Kinect hardware gave me chills from excitement was very disappointing.

On top of that I would like to know how many of the Nintendo games that they showed actually makes you geniunly excited because they introduced something new in mechanics, graphics, or story. For example goldeneye still looks like its on the N64 and Kirby's Epic Yarn looks like its for 5 year olds.

I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on the MS XBox giveaway. I've seen some comments floating around that it is unprofessional to accept such a gift from MS. My thought is that MS will probably send the console to the journo's employing publication, which it would've done anyway for review purposes. I'm thinking these consoles will be the property of the publication itself, not any individual journalist. I think MS just pulled an Oprah to drive home the fact that the new 360 model would be available this week, not as a bribe to the attending journalists.

Ok, just wading through what I am sure will only become a larger amount of info coming out of E3 and happened to notice a title for a 3DS game development, BloodRayne: The Shroud. Two things come immediately to mind. One, Holy Shit another BloodRayne game! I thought that IP had promise at first but then Uwe Boll got a hold of it and I assumed it was dead. Two, Does this mean we may see more mature titles released for the 3DS? I really did enjoy some of the first two games and would not dismiss another romp in the universe. But on a DS? It would most likely release around launch if it is already being listed with the device at this stage. Am reading too much into this or will Nintendo go after a more hardcore or "mature" audience with their latest console?

Hopin you guys can get people together at E3!

A friend from LanOC recommended the podcast to me. It's going into my lineup of stuff I listen to. In case anyone cares, I prefer talk about PC games. Hope I win the mouse. Thanks

Huge props to Jeff Cannata for his outstanding job keeping us posted on E3 via twitter!

I work on the east coast from 10pm-6am and sleep from 6:30am-2ish pm. With that kind of schedule i'm pretty much never able to keep up on events like this because I dont have access to anything besides my iPhone while at work.

Jeff's posts were frequent and updated pretty much the moment anything was said or shown. He took good pics to help give on the fly visuals so we could get some kind of understanding of what was going on.

I personally 'Cannata' been in the loop without Jeff's diligence and furious fingers updating the twitter. (See what I did there)

Jeff good Sir, you win E3

I was surprised that the E3 wish list only extended to a Wii HD on the Nintendo side. Even though the E3 press conferences are already over, I would have liked to see some kind of announcement from Nintendo about a better online infrastructure like Live: friends list/messaging, achievements, tying purchases to a login account for easy migration, etc. One of the biggest reasons that I don’t play my Wii very much, is probably the lack of achievements. Even though they don’t mean anything on PSN, LIVE, or Steam, they are just a fun addition to have. They make you feel like you are accomplishing something, when you really aren’t.

I wonder how stoked Jeff is that there's actually a Kid Icarus game coming out?

Eh.. Natal was 'meh' at best. I'd love to cut some wattermelons with that thing in MGS:R, but as it stants now - useless to me.

Does the mouse entry comment need to have substance? I listen because I like the podcast, but I'm only commenting to win the mouse. And I'm a cleric who PUGs, so you wouldn't just be helping me, but helping an infinite number of others as well. Bringing joy to the masses!

Guys, please please please give Jeff the opportunity to talk about boardgames every now and again on the podcast. The man obviously knows his stuff (most people who play Small World don't realize it's a remake of Vinci, if they've ever even heard of Vinci) and I think there's quite a bit of crossover between boardgamers and videogamers.

And Jeff, if you can, please evangelize Railroad Tycoon (now known as Railways of the World) more. It is seriously my favourite boardgame ever, although Agricola is up there as well.

I think the main reason that Natal... er Kinect... doesn't really excite me is a couple of things.

1. Force feedback. When I punch something in real life, I feel the strike. There isn't anything satisfying about punching air. When I shoot a gun in real life, I feel the recoil. It just seems like I will just feel silly with these make-believe motions. There is already a suspension of disbelief when I have a controller in my hand so the rumble really makes certain strikes or shots feel right. I just don't think I'll enjoy anything other than the novelty of flipping through the menu system Minority Report-style... and that's not worth that kind of money.

2. If I could fight at the level of a character in a video game, I would probably enjoy actually doing that. The Wii works for the casual experience because it is not really 1-1. I feel like I'm doing complex movements with minimal input from me. Also, for shooting... unless you give me a gun controller, I don't want to make "pew pew" gun hand at my television.

I will, of course, reserve judgment for when and if Microsoft shows me something innovative and exciting that can only be done with Kinect.

You know, my big problem with motion control, be it on the Nintendo or (I'm imagining on the PS3 or XBox) is that I don't want to stand up to play games. With the Wii, that's not as big a deal, since I can sit comfortably on the couch and waggle the controller around to play something like Zelda, but if you're asking me to stand on a balance board or jump around the living room like a fool to play bowling, it's not going to happen. I'm hoping that Move or Kinect (ugh, crappy name!) will still allow me to be comfortable when gaming.

Additionally, my PS3 is in my bedroom, sitting at the end of my bed, where there's no space to stand or jump around. I've no intention of re-arranging my bedroom to use Move, so a motion control scheme that doesn't fix my existing life is not going to be a purchase for me.

Adam Sessler is awesome.

Jeff is right. We all want a better looking balls out console. We are visceral creatures. When we saw the PS3 with dual HDMI, dual ethernet and 6 usb ports we were all a bit disappointed when we got the dumbed down version. It was almost comical hearing the contradictions. Garnett wanted Peacewalker to be a home console experience yet he wouldn't go the extra mile and get a PSP that would provide that experience. My question for Brian and Garnett in regards to the PC being the future high fidelity gaming console of choice would be "If you have your rig connected to your living room TV, is it your gaming platform of choice?" If not, why would you suggest it to someone? The set up bust be amazing where as Brian boots up the Xbox 360 to "party up" (rather then Team Speak, Skype, Fring , etc), connects to Windows Live, Steam and the game own authentication service, and downloads available patches. Yeah right. No thank you. The PC isn't there yet.

Question. If the future will look back at the current take on 3D entertainment as being comical and strange, they'll will be rolling in the isles when someone buys a $200 phone to control a slightly larger version of itself which cost $500.

Jeff, you are right about the board games. Some people on the netcast (podcast is a moniker giving Apple free advertisement) seem to forget the craftsmanship and imagination these games invoke. I'm more partial to the Magic the Gathering type games (Red/White) but my all time personal favorite was "Survive!". http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2653/survive

I normally post obscenely long posts, but I have just two things I want to say;

1) Brian. Buddy. Dude. Please, when you bring up a game on Cannatafford, will you PLEASE mention where it's available? Last week with Starcraft, you were like "You probably already own 3 copies..." and I'm like "But what if I was only five years old when Starcraft was released? Where do I buy it now?" but you never said :( This week was the same with Deus Ex, although I do already own a copy from Steam, you didn't mention where to get it. If you could in future man, I'd appreciate it!

2) I agree with Jeff about the iPhone/iPad connectivity thing. Everyone has an iPhone already, so if just one person has an iPad and you're all waiting for something, playing Scrabble sounds awesome.

I'll do a diamondspider here and make another post, as I've listened to more.

On motion control...with the Natal there's always the assumption that you won't be playing with a controller...but I've often wondered if for more hardcore games it'd be better suited to a Track-IR style approach of head tracking or whatever...Track-IR is actually quite amazing in what people do with it in shooter games like ARMA (not to mention flight sims and racing games which were really the genres it was targeted at).

I also could see it used with a controller for a better FPS control setup...I'm not sure how such a setup would work, but it might be possible to do something mathematically equivalent and on-par with kb/mouse (you could actually do that right now with the PS3 controller's Six-Axis or whatever in a really non-intuitive sort of way that I believe I've mentioned before (using the right analog for horizontal turning (you've got 360 degrees there for instant snap shots) and the angle you hold the controller at for vertical aiming (it wouldn't have to be one-to-one...and that side of it might be semi-intuitive...hell once you got used to using the joystick in a completely different way it wouldn't be too cumbersome if properly designed)).

On the topic of magic parachutes vs. magical game-mechanic invisibility...I think there are several things going on. One, gamers (generally) are willing to suspend their disbelief and go along with a game design on some pretty insane shit if there's some sort of bullshit justification...which is perfectly understandable. And game physics are generally pretty crazy to begin with so its not to hard to accept craziness along those lines. Gamers are also sometimes generous about abstract illustrations/representations of a mechanic as something more literal without explanation...if its presented as a gameplay mechanic...but it depends on the type of game. I'm not sure how it gets away with it, but Splinter Cell Conviction (which I haven't played, so bear with me) seems to get away with this with its whole "last known position system" which is really obviously represented as a gameplay mechanic being visualized in a very game-y way (and I've heard that the whole thing has a "you see the world in a sort of distorted way to present stuff without a UI" kind of thing so that fits).

A better example might be the flags in Battlefield games' conquest modes...people get that this is a game and yeah these arbitrary flags represent something and we're abstracting this shit. I remember as a modder back in the CS days (a modder who worked on stuff focused in a completely different direction, but who tried to be observant of trends out of interest) I looked at it and thought I saw a trend towards trying to explain mechanics of game types in more "real" terms (hostages and C4). This always bothered me slightly because CS really boiled down to Rocket Arena with more "realistic" weapons (and much less variety in them...something I still bitch about occasionally) and objectives. I always felt that the brilliant design move on CS's part was the addition of objectives...those seemed to (in theory when people didn't ignore them) make something like teambased Rocket Arena work without it degenerating into this sort of waiting game with a couple guys wandering around an empty map, but I always had the dreadful notion that a big part of its appeal was the superficial aspect of the coat of paint applied over this (and the fact that designers might overlook good gameplay decisions in favor of adherence to a game mode's "thematic concerns"). BF42 relieved me of this notion and made it apparent to me that gamers will still accept things that are obviously game elements and presented as such.

I think where the differentiating factor lies in general (and this varies from person to person...I'm very forgiving on this...but then again I miss DOOM and Quake deathmatch and the pure fun days of old-school shooters), is that you have to be consistent or you have to be the type of game where people will accept these sorts of things. I remember a discussion on the Generations Arena boards years back about the DOOM guy having a magic shotgun with an infinite tube magazine...we accept things like that in DOOM or Quake 3 or whatever because its that style of game...its a balls to the wall shoot-em up...hell Quake 3 has power ups and its ok because we approach it from the beginning as "this is a game". We accept flags in our multiplayer because its multiplayer...you're not really there to be immersed in a world (though that may happen on the side)...you're there to compete with others. Just Cause is sort of in a middle point...its a silly fun game where you're out to blow shit up...its trying to be the Crank 2 of games...but its not quite at the level of arcade abstraction of a Q3A...so it gives a sort of winking nod to the gamer with its crazy magic parachute and we accept that because the game isn't trying to be plausible.

I think something like Alpha Protocol that tried to tell a story, that bills itself as a more "serious" game, and is for lack of a better explanation...trying to be what its trying to be...runs into a little more resistance when it incorporates the more arcade elements that were mentioned, especially when it doesn't try to hang a lantern on them in one way or another. It may not be fair...but I think it comes down to where people draw the line in a given game and the invisibility thing comes off as strange and out of place as its described.

Just finished listening. Great show. Adam Sessler is a good guest, and fits in well. When are the "It's more fun , than good" shirts coming?

This was my first time listening to your podcast. I saw Garnett on feedback this past week and really liked his views on the games and other subject matter. Great Podcast and site. I think the only thing that could make the podcast better is its own radio station on the next GTA game. Whaaa??? Listening about games while playing a game, I just blew my mind!

I'm not through the whole cast yet (I tend to listen in my car and at work)...but I thought I'd post comments for what I've heard thus far:

On the whole shotgun discussion, I'm a huge gun nut; but I agree with the gameplay and weapon balance perspective...and I'm a huge fucking gun nut!

http://www.shackpics.com/files/sglwithromanianscope_brl3jsp6nfc5ljoi9cl6.jpg
http://www.shackpics.com/files/pkasv2_qlu2bxu9g0jdwt07ts5r.jpg
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http://www.shackpics.com/files/92and96_24uk1ts9u8heu5bwdogm.jpg

But yeah...I agree with Adam Sessler's mentioning of DOOM (and by implication DOOM2) as sort of setting the standard for how game shotguns work in terms of mechanics. I generally see DOOM2's SG and SSG as sort of the archetypes of game shotguns that I judge all others by (if a game has a DOOM2 SSG...they could bulletpoint that motherfucker on the back of the box and I'd be very likely to buy it).

I also enjoyed the conversation about ARMA and OpFP and games of that ilk and the point that they have a specific audience. I've generally felt that those games aren't made for me, but I'm glad they exist. We all have niches that we fall into that aren't for everyone...I love hardcore flight sims and the IL2 Sturmovik series is my favorite right now and I look forward to their BoB game (Wings of Prey or whatever isn't really part of the series IMHO so much as a nice more arcadish kinda spin off...but I digress).

On the topic of consoles and new consoles and graphics tech, I'd say that until we can really simulate the physics of light via ray tracing or photon mapping or some other really advanced techniques that we've still got a looooong way to go in terms of improving graphics. I'm not saying that I have problems with the current levels of graphical capabilities...hell I still enjoy Q3, IL2, and other older games and appreciate their graphics for what they are, and I believe that we often overemphasize graphics. That having been said I think that we haven't come close to hitting some sort of universal end-point of graphics being "good enough."

I'll make this short: why is it that no one who is talking about E3 seems to be excited about Elder Scrolls 5? Is there something I'm not aware of going on with Bethesda? The fact that the next Fallout game isn't being made by them seems to scream "Hey, we are working on a sequel to Oblivion!" to me. I'm sure if its shown it won't be playable, but still, am I crazy for thinking they might announce it and maybe show a trailer?

Listening to this episode, I had a big smile on my face as Jeff seemed to take on a synthesis of Luke (bringing the 'tude) and Shane (romanticized Sony love). Felt kinda like the old days!

Speaking of Jeff, in the latest Sarcastic Gamer Red podcast, Lono does a great impression of Jeff watching the i4n announcement. :)

Awesome episode. Should keep on getting guest hosts for future episodes.

In response to some of the conversations in this weeks podcast I feel that the crew put forward alot of shortsighted views.
First of all the main reason why violent games are so pervasive is due to the fact that getting one of over an opponent, beating them and putting them down speaks to one of the base features of humanity. It is in our nature to destroy ourselves, and this is reflected in the wars we have fought as a race. Shooters represent the easiest way to feed the bloodlust that resides within us all. This is the sole reason why they are so prevalent within the games industry and sell so well, they feed a base desire within us all ..... wether or not we chose to acknowledge it. And as an escapist medium we should be able to enter a fantasy world that allows us to express desires and needs that we cannot in real life.
Secondly, the games industry should not be actively tryng to court mainstream acceptance. Movie studios and filmakers never set out conciously to create films that garnered them mainstream acceptance, forced moves of that nature only come across as contrived and more than often fail in their intention and seem obvious and insulting.

I'm with Jeff on the idea that new hardware can improve games, even if you take out the control mechanisms. Take AI or physics for instance: Both can require lots of processing to get believability out of, and more powerful consoles overall will allow developers to expand these areas influence on gameplay significantly.

Just look at how physics in RDR matter to immersion. Do you think back on the original Xbox they'd have had the clock cycles to have a guy get stuck in the horse stirrups and drug across the desert? And RDR is still kind of janky and has a lot of improvement that could be done.

Here was the point on my Laserdisc comparison to this new 3D tech on consoles:

-Do I think that it was a mistake releasing Laserdisc? No, no harm in trying.
-Would I have wanted to buy one? Absoutely not. I used VCR then went to DvD and was very happy with that.
-Did I have friends who bought Laserdisc players that were unhappy they did so? Yes, several.
-Would DvD have come out without Laserdisc... Well, certainly... many generations of tech are skipped in the lab due to them not being considered to be ready for consumers. Technologies can be created in the lab and not released, it happens all the time.

That's why 3D is like Laserdisc in my eyes: pushing in the right direction, but not something I'm going to even consider buying until I not only see one killer app, but a whole category of killer apps.

Love weekend confirmed and all its updates. Keep on doing your thing. And also E3 this week is gonna be sick with all the new releases and yes the oh so talented new PSP system. Can't wait! Keep it up!

Absolutely love Sessler being on, I really hope you can grab him many, many more times. JD is the only guest I love more :x

Jeff advocates that since all content will be jacked straight into our brains eventually, game developers in 2010 should start moving towards pen and paper roleplaying since it relies on imagination -- the technology of the future.

It was awesome to hear the Sessler on your show.

Good episode! And it was awesome my comment made it on air. <3 Garnett. Anyway, one thing that sometimes annoys me is that some of the games(very few though) on Cannata-aford are sort of expensive. Like Skies of Arcadia is like more expensive than most current games. Old doesn't necessarily mean cheap, but you guys seem to remember this most of the time though. ^_^

Adam Sessler a god among gamers =D good show

great ep! good job have sessler on hes awesome! i cant get enough of the 4 min warning either. im buying DJ Hero

You must have Adam back

Last but not least, I believe there is a market for Sony to release a PSP2 into. Ok, Nintendo have the straight up portable gaming market sown up this generation with DS and Apple have the portable media market with the idevices range.
But there is a gap in the market for a device to consolidate these two worlds together, a portable media and internet connected device that also provides a full on portable gaming experience.
Wether or not Sony are able as a company to create a device to cross both these markets with a well concieved and thought out device would remain to be seen, but to say that the market for portable entertainment and gaming is sown up and fully provided for by Nintendo and Apple is shortsighted.

I"m not so much into Boardgames myself, not saying that aren't worth it just never played that many.

I am however into Magic: The Gathering. I was so excited when Magic came to Xbox Live and was shocked when I saw how many times it had been downloaded. Apparently the developers thought the same and rolled out 2 expansion packs. I love that this game is making its way into our consoles and hopefully onto my iPhone. I think Magic would work really well with a style similar with Words With Friends, play at your own pace.

I remember the old Magic game for PC didn't do so well and think this was because of the way it played, it wasn't so user friendly.

On a side not about the actual card game. I remember playing them when i was younger and would always get excited when a new expansion set would come out. Eventually over time so many sets came out with new abilities that they sort of rendered the earlier sets useless. If you wanted to stay competitive you had to keep dishing out the $$$. Of course this is only natural, i do understand they need to keep it fresh and alive and keep making money themselves but eventually i quite because enough was enough.

Hey guys! Thanks for another great podcast, I look forward to you guys every week as one of my top gaming podcasts. I wanted to chime in on what would get you to buy a new console. I'm 15 and have to buy all of my video games on my own. Up until last December with the ps3 slim I was still stuck on a ps2 playing games from 7 years ago, and the only way I managed to get the ps3 was by buying it with a friend. For me a new console would have to be at a decent purchase price with games that I actually want to play at launch. Also being a WoW junkie who pays his monthly fee, if they pulled off an MMO or online game of sorts that doesn't suck, that might be enticing enough for me to scrap together the cash for a new console. Just another perspective :) Oh, and also Adam was awesome but I miss Billy, and Shane bringing the whimsy.

I started off sort of meh about Adam Sessler being on the show but he turned out to be a pretty awesome guest. Probably better than Shane will/might be.