Evening Reading

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• Do not start with Perl. : airrob
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  starting with perl is a terrible idea : electroly
  • This man knows wtf. PERL is pretty much a toy. It's a nice toy, but nothing more. Python would be more... : dopeman
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  even people how know Perl forgets Perl.

  Jul 19, 2007 11:07pm PDT
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  even people how know Perl forgets Perl. : TPSReport
  • ^^^^^^^^ : Mad Brahmin Disease
• lol don't start with perl : CrazyPants
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  start with perl. : pyide
  • damn you pyide! : grendel
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  ok if Perl is a bad idea, what about Python? same difference? : grendel
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    Python is a good language. You can certainly dabble a bit in it. To pick up an encompassing view of progr... : enyakk
    • Java is not a starting place. Java is designed for retarded people who can't be trusted alone in a room w... : steelsamurai
  • yes. start with C : Lightbulb
• start with x86 assembly : electroly
• I agree, starting with perl is an insane idea. What do you want to do, anyway ? If you want to do someth... : taronish
• lol wtf : enyakk
• Sorry, to reply more directly to your post, ruby is roughly isomorphic to python. I mean, in a lot of res... : taronish
• Start with a simple procedural language first. BASIC's a good place to start there. When you understand... : boarder2
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  Learn C, then learn C++. : CRasterImage
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    wtf is wrong with you people. : enyakk
    • O_o : CRasterImage
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  Why do people hate perl so much? :( It's what I'm most familiar with. : Chunks
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    I don't think people hate perl. It is just a matter of starting on solid footing. : CRasterImage
    • As in, perl gives you more than enough rope to hang yourself..... kinda thing? I actually don't know a... : Chunks
    • I fucking despise Perl. :) : nudel
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    It was a good language in its time. In the early 90s, its support for regular expressions and text proce... : taronish
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      All I do is write perl/CGI. It seems to handle the job well enough. I don't really like my alternatives t... : Chunks
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        Why don't you like languages like python or ruby ? Can you be specific ? Even if you enjoy perl, it c... : taronish
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          Never really seen a line of ruby OR python. My experience is quite limited. or rather, nil. And I agre... : Chunks
          • python/ruby are pretty much the same as perl, but with much cleaner and more regular syntax (though perl ... : jcupitt
          • Well, I would describe perl as having a philosophy of "many ways to do one thing" as far as having a bazi... : taronish
  • depending on the task at hand it is good.... but it definitely should not be considered as an intro to pr... : j0nchan
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  C++, java, or C# : Antilles_Prime
  • ^^IAWTP. : nomaad
• Do not start with Perl : Mr.Fusion
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  Everyone who said perl was either joking or crazy. Also if you're going to do C, start straight in wit... : Zero|DPX
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    beg pardon? : CRasterImage
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      C gives you tons of bad habits. From stylistic things like declaring your variables at the top of blocks... : Zero|DPX
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        I just have a hard time recommending a beginner learn C++. I know opinions differ, but it's full of point... : taronish
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          I find it much less complex to do most things in C++ than C, because C++ lets me capture the concepts I'm... : Zero|DPX
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            Well, if I recall you used to work on C++ compilers, so I'm not surprised if your level of expertise with... : taronish
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              C++ is a very young language. Only in the last three years have compilers begun to be broadly standard a... : Zero|DPX
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                C++ may still be developing, but it is hard to call it 'young', since it is older than most other languag... : taronish
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                  C++ is still rapidly changing though. I hope C++ doesn't die down in popularity (which I don't believe it... : qwpeoriu
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                    Maybe I just haven't seen it in the right light, but template meta programming seems so painful to deciph... : taronish
                    • You're right. Like I said, this kind of thing has hideous syntax now, and one of the primary aims of C++... : Zero|DPX
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        Declaring variables at the top of a function is not a stylistic thing, it is just part of the language. ... : CRasterImage
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          Garbage collection isn't intrinsically part of object oriented languages - look at Objective-C (although ... : taronish
          • I wrote some genetic algorithm implementations in Java way back when to test it out. It ran something lik... : steelsamurai
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          When people learn programming in an OO language, they rely too heavily on garbage collection. Well, ex... : Zero|DPX
          • Interesting. In my experience, C programmers and C++ programmers are the same people. I haven't met one... : CRasterImage
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        I agree, however, that macros are a bad idea. : CRasterImage
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          Don't confuse macros in C with macros in all languages. Lisp macros are beautiful. : taronish
          • Don't worry, I am not. C macros are bad because they make it difficult to debug code that uses them. : CRasterImage
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        i will never let anyone tell me declaring my variables at the top of the block is wrong. i write all of : electroly
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          I tend to declare variables closer to where they are used - anything else is just a remnant of things the... : taronish
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            i strongly disagree that top declarations are just a relic of the past. i put them there because then i ... : electroly
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              Why not use functors though ? : qwpeoriu
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                function pointers are already annoying enough, because i have to define the functions as separate top-lev... : electroly
                • I can define an entier object in one or two lines, though, no more than a function. And these can be sco... : Zero|DPX
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              I find a variable's scope to be more important than its type, so having variables declared where they're ... : Zero|DPX
              • I tend to write very "shallow" functions, so variable scope is almost always just the scope of the functi... : electroly
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              It doesn't seem sloppy to me. I'm sure there are times when I declare things at the top of the block (lik... : taronish
              • I certainly don't want to give the impression that passing function pointers is equivalent to Lisp's high... : electroly
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              I have a convention for this. I put invariable variables (things whose value won't change through the blo... : jcupitt
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                hah, yeah I'm a bit of a const nazi myself with my local variables. Although I do usually declare them w... : qwpeoriu
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                  i'm at least relieved that i'm not the only one to judiciously use "const". my coworkers have never once... : electroly
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                    silly fucks :( : jcupitt
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                      Well, I have a dislike for writing class methods as const. I have been bitten a couple times by proble... : CRasterImage
                      • Seems like a design problem and not a code problem to me. I am pretty much Adolf Hitler reincarnate when ... : qwpeoriu
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                        that's not "falling apart", that's the type system informing you that you've fucked something up, and you... : electroly
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                          Ok, here is a real world example of what I mean: - It is a good idea to keep class data members privat... : CRasterImage
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                            you're just memoizing the results of your getter method, you should have declared mutable anything that n... : qwpeoriu
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                              It was a couple years ago, so I can't remember if I did that or not. But I do remember that several thi... : CRasterImage
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                                mutable is one of those things, like volatile, that almost nobody knows exists and almost nobody uses. ... : nudel
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                                  volatile is absolutely useless, except for reading mmaped hardware registers anyone who uses it should... : jcupitt
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                                    I think I have used it in C# once or twice, where you are guaranteed that read/writes of bools and refere... : nudel
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                                      I think that still won't work in the way you think without a memory barrier. Unless C# is doing something... : jcupitt
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                                        Yeah the ability of he optimizer to move code around makes volatile useless (and dangerous) in many cases... : nudel
                                        • heh, eeeek, yuk : jcupitt
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                              Yup, if you're caching results then there are two ways to keep the method const: 1) Declare the cached... : nudel
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                                I am going to play with it tomorrow at work. I don't know if I am remembering all the details or not.... : CRasterImage
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                                  That can't be right. What about recursive functions ? Although I can't exactly recall off the top of my h... : qwpeoriu
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                                    Like I said, I don't know what unrolling const functions had to do with the issue of writing to the membe... : CRasterImage
                                    • Ya, that would have done it. Damn. I have been in a C/C++ programmer for 13 years and this proves t... : CRasterImage
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                                isn't this one of the cases where it's OK to cast away const? I seem to remember that's why you can : jcupitt
                                • I prefer to make things mutable but yeah, same result. Using a const_cast also means that the member can ... : nudel
                      • A Get method should almost always be const, surely? If it needs to modify some internal object, like s... : nudel
                • I think things that won't change through a block are "block level" objects, so they need to be declared a... : jcupitt
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            A fun experiment is: Trying to recreate C++ like classes, using C structures with function pointers. A... : CRasterImage
            • I wrote over a quarter million lines of code like this. I went as far as to implement constructors, destr : steelsamurai
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        stylistic things like declaring your variables at the top of blocks or functions instead of where you use : steelsamurai
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          Not appreciating RAII and not caring about object scope fit together I guess but I'd say that you are com... : nudel
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            the statement being made was basically, "C is bad to learn with because there is no RAII." I'm refuting t : steelsamurai
            • I totally agree that people should learn all that stuff, I'm just not sure that it is the *first* thing t... : nudel
  • C does not give you tons of bad habits. Having being lazy gives you bad habits. Besides if you want to... : steelsamurai
  • I recommended starting in C, but I have to admit that I started in C++, so my opinion is somewhat tained.... : FlatlineDixay
• If you want to learn the core concepts of programming and the "right" way to do stuff, do C++ or Java. If... : airrob
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  C is archaic and not used widely anymore. It's much too close too hardware level for him and needlessly s... : enyakk
  • Meant as a reply to CRasterImage. : enyakk
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    Wow. There is so much that is wrong with your post that it is hard to find a place to begin. "not use... : CRasterImage
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      I completely agree with this. If you want to learn to program RIGHT, then you need to know C, and how ... : SwiftyPants
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        How will Java not teach him memory concepts he needs to know? : enyakk
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          How would it? Java handles garbage collection so you never really learn what's really going on beneath th... : asdf
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            I say again: there are shitty programmers everywhere. To write production-quality Java code with thre... : taronish
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              it's harder to understand that about Java when you don't understand anything about even basic memory allo... : steelsamurai
              • if starting at the end means you can abstract away certain concepts that are unnecessary to a beginner th... : derelict515
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      By the same reasoning he should just go for Assembler, since really C is still hiding hardware that he ne... : enyakk
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        In a way, this is true. However, good practices in assembly change with every new generation of chips... : CRasterImage
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          Yeah, C is just portable assembler anyway, more or less. If you have a good macro assembler you can write... : jcupitt
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            Exactamundo. : CRasterImage
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              I would even go so far as to say C++ is basicly a portable assembler. Off the top of my head, I can't t... : CRasterImage
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                Didn't C++ get rid of bit fields? And what about volatile? Isn't that C-only? I find it hard to keep trac... : jcupitt
                • bit fields and volatile are both in C++ : electroly
                • No, volatile and bit-fields are in C++. Everything from C is in C++ except a few bits of C99, basicall... : Zero|DPX
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                C allows you to use implicit function declarations so that in some situations you don't need a function p... : electroly
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                  yeah, if we're being really nitpicky C++ treats void Foo(); void Foo( void ); the same, unlike... : qwpeoriu
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                    what's the difference? i always thought C's handling of this was the same as C++'s. : electroly
                    • () in C means can-take-any-args, it's a left-over from ancient pre-prototype function declarations : jcupitt
                    • This is legal in C, with a method declared like so: void Foo(); ... Foo( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ); : qwpeoriu
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    I use printf every day. C++ or C? What would you say :) : dopeman
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      everyone should use printf() every day! : jcupitt
      • I still use printf and friends in C++. I just never got into the iostreams stuff. I know it's wrong but I... : nudel
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  All these people. Whatever. While I'm not a huge fan of perl, I will say this: start with whatever you wa... : zakk
  • ^^^^ i change my answer to this good advice : Lightbulb
  • I like what you wrote. I agree with most of it. Notably the part about "Every language will let you sh... : CRasterImage
  • Um, while I agree that having a goal is good, I think that telling a beginner to find source code for som... : FlatlineDixay
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  Uhm.. again. I'd re-iterate my java suggestion. The only thing perl would have to offer is regular expr... : dopeman
  • You can do regexp in any language. They're part of many languages' standard libraries these days and easy... : nudel
• I learned on C++, and I am picking up on Java, JS, and PHP pretty well now. : ventro
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  I love how this entire thread is useless to the original poster. : enyakk
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    It's very useful: Don't learn C or Perl, learn C# / Java / C++ instead. I don't know much about Ruby, ... : nudel
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      it's more "don't learn perl" if you want to find the consensus, there's no consensus on C++ / C# / Java /... : steelsamurai
      • I think any of the four is a fine place to start. While I would personally pick C# I can see arguments... : nudel
  • code threads are just an excuse for programmers to talk shop. i get a kick out of going back and forth w... : electroly
• Depending on what you want to do, I say Python or C# : SiW73
• I'd suggest Python for the lack of hassle with compilers, linkers and makefiles. Then once you've got ... : johnsto
• After reading some of this thread, it seems to me you need to determine whether you want to "learn to pro... : DinK
• Learn C, it is the mother of all languages. They often like to use something more structured as a first l... : steelsamurai
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  All the guys who are putting perl down really don't know what they're talking about. 1. perl has very ea... : sroylance
  • Do you know C++, C# or Java? : nudel
• I wouldn't go with ruby because it uses a design pattern that isn't normal. If you are trying to do this... : carazy
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  start with a high level dynamic language. it will be easier and more fun to learn. Ruby or Python are bot... : wtf242
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    Pity this Man242 : kgargonmagrix79
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      =) you installed it? : fletch_
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        yes and it still gets me all giggly : kgargonmagrix79
        • me too, i've actually thought about making one that will let you define a set of people and colors so tha... : fletch_
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  This is the worst thread I've read today. : sharkII
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    Why? What training wheels language did you want to champion? : CRasterImage
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      I was going to say c then c++/Java ... but hey. ya know. : sharkII
      • btw, I've said it before: http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=13386307 : sharkII
• If you need object-oriented programming you go with Java or C#. For web scripting go with Perl that also ... : Mad Brahmin Disease
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  I thought Java won. That is a useful language and is universally applicable. : pauk111
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    Java won what? Java is not the right tool for everything. It is not even the right tool for many thing... : CRasterImage
    • The last time this question was posted Java was suggested the most. Thereby winning. : pauk111
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  everyone should start with brainfuck : electroly
  • and then move to intercal : electroly
• Java/C# or C++. I don't think starting with C is good since you should be thinking in an object oriented ... : derelict515