Crysis 2 is most pirated game of 2011

EA has finished 2011 dethroning Activision's Call of Duty series. Just... not in the way it wanted to. Crysis 2 has won the "honor" of being the most pirated game of 2011.

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EA has finished 2011 dethroning Activision's Call of Duty series. Just... not in the way it wanted to. Crysis 2 has won the "honor" of being the most pirated game of 2011. The PC version of the game was torrented about 3.92 million times, besting Modern Warfare 3's 3.65 million downloads. EA and its Partners games round out the rest of the top 5 with games like Battlefield 3, FIFA 12, and Portal 2. Piracy plagued the original Crysis, and it appears the sequel has suffered the same fate. Developer Crytek claimed that for every purchased copy of Crysis, there were 20 copies downloaded. The rampant piracy on the platform led the developer to pursue a multi-platform approach with Crysis 2, with claims that consoles provide better anti-piracy measures. Of course, consoles aren't exactly secure platforms either. Gears of War 3 was the most illegally downloaded Xbox 360 game of 2011, and it was torrented about 890K times. Surprisingly, Kinect Sports: Season Two also ranked highly on the list with 690K downloads--proving that piracy can be a family-friendly affair as well.

Even pirates are the controller

While Wii software sales have dropped quite significantly, the pirate community continues to thrive. Super Mario Galaxy 2, a game which released in 2010, continued to be the top-downloaded game in 2011, with 1.28 million downloads last year. Notably, Xenoblade Chronicles was downloaded 950K times since its European release in August. With such staggering piracy figures, will sales be impacted when the game releases in the US later this year? And if so, how will that affect the ongoing efforts of "Operation Rainfall"--a grassroots organization that wants Nintendo of America to release other hardcore JRPGs on the Wii in 2012?

Available 2012 legally; now illegally

These staggering figures undoubtedly pushed EA and Nintendo (and others) to initially support SOPA, a bill that aims to curb piracy via questionable methods. Both these companies have since rescinded support for the controversial bill. For the complete list of most-pirated games this year, visit TorrentFreak.
From The Chatty
  • reply
    January 3, 2012 10:30 AM

    Andrew Yoon posted a new article, Crysis 2 is most pirated game of 2011.

    EA has finished 2011 dethroning Activision's Call of Duty series. Just... not in the way it wanted to. Crysis 2 has won the "honor" of being the most pirated game of 2011.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 10:30 AM

      Please say a stupid thing, please do it Cervatttttttttt

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      January 3, 2012 10:32 AM

      Speech! Speech!

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      January 3, 2012 10:32 AM

      que dantastic and scener

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      January 3, 2012 10:36 AM

      Fucking disgusting

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      January 3, 2012 10:38 AM

      [deleted]

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        January 3, 2012 10:40 AM

        Where in this article did they say that a pirated download equals a lost sale?

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          January 3, 2012 10:42 AM

          [deleted]

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            January 3, 2012 12:09 PM

            No it wasn't. But supporting that many titles costs money. The a-holes reporting bugs which can possibly be related to nocd cracks and other piracy measures. It's one thing to sell a million copies then on patch day have 4 million people jamming servers.

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          January 3, 2012 10:46 AM

          Probably never (I didn't read the article, but already saw the chart). But "pirated units are lost sales" is always point one out of the mouths of publishers, and to a lesser extent, developers. They need to stop punishing paying customers. I don't care much about the rest; stop punishing paying customers.

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            January 3, 2012 10:48 AM

            Hmm, I didn't perceive crysis 2 as having any such harsh DRM. Point taken though, I find stupid DRM (ubisoft) annoying

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            January 3, 2012 10:59 AM

            Agreed, DRM doens't really raise the cost of piracy, the pirate is already saving $60, so the loss of time and effort isn't a huge deal. It is a big deal or the people who paid for it legitimately.

            The solution has to be based in raising the cost of piracy without hurting legitimate consumers, but that's even more anathema to many games- more enforcement. Finding a way to pinpoint and fine/sue those who pirate games. But that solution isn't much fun either.

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        January 3, 2012 10:42 AM

        Loss of sales wasn't mentioned in the article. Either way I think its disgusting that so many people think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with downloading whatever they want when they want.

        I definitely don't support the machine (RIAA, MPAA) but piracy has definitely affected the hobby I love, PC gaming. Most games are multiplatform ports now instead of PC titles because of this nonsense, its sickening.

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          January 3, 2012 12:33 PM

          I agree. But until downloading is actually made illegal, it wont change.

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          January 3, 2012 3:48 PM

          I think part of the issue is that the entertainment industry as a whole has spent far too much time trying to guilt folks into paying for their products. People who do it KNOW its wrong but that doesn't stop them. At some point arguing over morality is a waste of time. The cold hard fact is that distribution is essentially free. Every part of the entertainment industry needs to figure out a NEW way to monetize their products. You can't make something that's infinitely reproducible, scarce. DRM has been an abysmal failure. The current change going on is equal in impact as the automobile was on the horse & carriage industry. The latter either had to come up with new ideas they could apply their skills to or they went tits-up.

          I think most people do agree that creators should be paid but thats something the marketplace decides. Valve has shown that there IS a profit to be made but they had to completely re-think their business model to get to where they are. The problem is, most of the industry wants things to remain EXACTLY the way its been all along. Thats not going to happen. As Newell said, Valve concentrates on serving their paying customers.

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        January 3, 2012 10:42 AM

        Of the 20:1 pirated ratio that's cited in the article, how many of them do you think actually are lost sales?

        Just curious.

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          January 3, 2012 10:45 AM

          pirates would have you believe that absolutely none of them are lost sales.

          I can say absolutely without a doubt that there are pirates who will buy games they can't pirate (swtor) but if they can pirate a game they would otherwise buy, they will.

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          January 3, 2012 10:55 AM

          I'd guess somewhere around 20-25% Of course it depends on region- in some places piracy is just rampant and people basically never pay for software, or they simply can't afford it. In the US however, I'd guess the number is closer to 1/4, maybe 1/5. It's probably proportional to sales of the games as well. It's ludicrous to think that everyone either values a game at either $60 or $0- many people will value it somewhere in between. That's how steam sales work. So a lost sale doesn't equal $60 in lost profit, many of those lost sales are probably better valued somewhere lower than the price point.

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            January 3, 2012 12:01 PM

            If 20% of the pirated copies would have translated to sales, with a 20:1 pirate:legit ratio that would quadruple the sales.

            If as little as 5% of the pirated copies would have translated to sales, that would have doubled the number of sales.

            With download/piracy rate what it is, you don't need a huge percentage of them to translate to sales. Even a 1% conversion rate would be a significant increase in sales (~20%).

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          January 3, 2012 11:02 AM

          Who cares? People are still stealing something with no care or remorse.

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        January 3, 2012 10:49 AM

        Exactly, I cant buy 20 games a year, If I dont have the money im not going to get every video game.

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          January 3, 2012 10:51 AM

          So what you're saying is, you feel entitled to pirate something you won't buy? Or am I reading this wrong?

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            January 3, 2012 10:53 AM

            That or he's saying that if piracy didn't exist then he still wouldn't be buying 20 games a year so financially it doesn't matter either way.

            Basically the old debate of - if piracy was impossible would the people who currently pirate software instead just buy more games?

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          January 3, 2012 10:52 AM

          Does someone who can only afford less than 20 games a year feel entitled to download what they can't afford? Why not wait till a game gets cheaper? Why must one have it now?

          That kind of entitlement fucking sucks. It's greed.

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            January 3, 2012 11:22 AM

            its ridiculous. I cant buy a new car every year but I'm not going to go fucking steal it.

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              January 3, 2012 12:11 PM

              of course not, because then you're taking something tangible from someone else. that person no longer has the ability to use it or sell it. they are not the same.

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                January 3, 2012 12:14 PM

                Whether its tangible is meaningless because you're comparing something that can be traded digitally to something that cannot. It is the same in that at the end of the day, you're fucking stealing something if you're pirating.

                The important distinction to be made here is that with a Car, you're paying for what you see. With a GAME, you're paying for the motherfucking blood sweat and tears that the developer PUT IN :( You're not paying for a medium of tangible item. You're paying for all the overtime they worked, all their wages, and I can almost assure you that most game developers aren't rich cats. :(

                Sorry if this comes across as a rant, but I really dislike people pirating shit.

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                January 4, 2012 2:53 AM

                This is the stupidest argument I have ever read. Wtf humanity.

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                January 6, 2012 7:56 PM

                This argument is completely asinine. People have lost their jobs and companies have gone bankrupt because of poor sales. This may not be wholly blamable on piracy, but it certainly contributes. It could easily be the difference between a small studio staying in business or not.

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              January 3, 2012 12:16 PM

              How about if you could magically create a copy of the car you wanted?

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            January 3, 2012 11:53 AM

            I never said that, I said I cant buy more then so many games a year. Im not going to buy a game that i know is shit ( Crysis 2) because I could spend that $60 on a good game. Just because people pirate stuff doesnt mean they were going to buy it.

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              January 3, 2012 12:00 PM

              Crysis 2 is in no way a shit game. I've played every major game release of the past 10 years, and Crysis holds its own as a solid shooter. If you don't like fps's in general, then you won't like Crysis, but that doesn't mean the game is shit. Grow up.

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                January 3, 2012 12:26 PM

                I have played every major game over the last 10 years + aswell. Just because I dont like a game means I should grow up? I love FPS, I play MW, COD, BF3, Red Orchestra, ARMA2 I have a wide range of FPS's that I play, and Crysis 2 is mediocre at best.

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                January 3, 2012 1:00 PM

                It was crap. Worse in every way compared to crysis. AI graphics and the biggest thing is that powers and level design was garbage compared to crysis 1. Who wants to buy a sequel game thats not even half as good as the original or hell even far cry instincts/predator were better crysis games.

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              January 3, 2012 12:11 PM

              If it's shit then why the fuck would you or anyone else download it. Just wait until it goes on sale. With all the sales these days and things like GoG there is absolutely no reason to pirate games anymore.

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                January 3, 2012 12:22 PM

                People pirate games cause they hear bad reviews and pirate the game because they know its not worth money.

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                  January 3, 2012 1:04 PM

                  "then why play it at all?" someone will ask. Some people have more time than money. As they grow up and get jobs, they'll have more money than time and piracy becomes less of a thing. Except that there are some people who pirate just because which makes me angrier than anything (see http://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=26280731#item_26280731 )

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                    January 3, 2012 1:46 PM

                    I know someone that does this. Their explanation: "Because I can spend money on other things."

                    >:(

                    I've secretly hoped to hear about their legal trouble. Somehow, they've lucked out, which amazes me because he isn't very technically minded.

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                  January 3, 2012 1:37 PM

                  Let's pretend you couldn't actually download games to steal them. Let's say you had to walk into a store and take it from the shelf, put it in your coat and walk out.

                  You think that because you're poor and the game is bad that it's okay? You're out of your mind.

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                    January 3, 2012 2:23 PM

                    Those Porsche vanilla Boxsters are pretty fucking shit. We should just take them until Porsche learns their lesson.

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                  January 3, 2012 1:44 PM

                  Yet they (you?) still feel entitled to play it? Why can't they just focus on games they bought?

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          January 3, 2012 12:12 PM

          You can get 30 games a year on steam for 20.00.

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      January 3, 2012 10:39 AM

      and we wonder why the CEO pondered exiting the PC market entirely...

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        January 3, 2012 10:44 AM

        Whoa, did he say that somewhere? Have a sourcE?

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        January 3, 2012 12:12 PM

        They have never said that.

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          January 3, 2012 12:47 PM

          they definitely did.

          http://kotaku.com/5020530/cryteks-ceo-piracy-threatens-pc-exclusivity

          So I guess the message is: PC gamers, stop pirating and start snitching on your friends if you want more exclusives out of Crytek. And to show he's serious, he also tells IGN they're working on a non-Crysis console game.

          http://www.destructoid.com/crytek-crysis-warhead-our-last-exclusive-pc-game-ports-will-be-unique-89716.phtml

          Of course Warhead has been under development for quite some time, and we had no desire or intention to disappoint our loyal PC fans. So, after some careful consideration, we decided to continue our support for the PC Crysis franchise with this release. But yes, all new franchises we develop in the future will be created with a cross platform strategy in mind.”

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            January 3, 2012 1:00 PM

            wat? Both of those examples are threatening to stop making PC exclusives, and focus on cross-platform. He was saying they'd make games for consoles too (which they did) and not stop developing for PC entirely

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              January 3, 2012 1:36 PM

              Considering those graphic upgrades and such along with the mod tools that Crytek released exclusively for PC. I know that I read the forums and a good number of console gamers were butt hurt about that. I'm honestly thinking that they still see the PC as a viable source of income, but find that multiplatform can get you more money across the board.

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            January 3, 2012 6:20 PM

            Crytek is not "exiting the PC market entirely", so you're still wrong.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 10:39 AM

      show of hands who would download a car???

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        January 3, 2012 10:41 AM

        me.

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        January 3, 2012 10:50 AM

        I'd have one of everything.

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        January 3, 2012 10:59 AM

        Now show hand who would download an mp3 or rent a game.

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          January 3, 2012 11:01 AM

          Download from iTunes or another service? Sounds legit.
          Also, renting a game is legit too.

          ????

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            January 3, 2012 11:21 AM

            Yes download from iTunes you got it !

            ???????????????????????????????????????

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        January 3, 2012 11:00 AM

        I would download the shit out of a car!

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        January 3, 2012 11:19 AM

        Fuck yes

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        January 3, 2012 11:26 AM

        Does the car run or will I have towed off my property?

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        January 3, 2012 11:56 AM

        Yeah. I would :(

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        January 3, 2012 12:02 PM

        Would you download a car if it were marked as stolen and being searched for by the police though.

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          January 3, 2012 12:20 PM

          Sure, if the police are looking as hard for this theoretical car as they are for some pirate copy of Crysis 2.

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            January 3, 2012 12:44 PM

            So you have no problem with stealing, just getting caught.

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              January 3, 2012 1:18 PM

              You've discovered the basis for human morality.

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                January 3, 2012 2:49 PM

                Not mine. I don't pirate because I want to support the people who make the things I like. Not getting caught doesn't come in to it for me.

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              January 3, 2012 7:50 PM

              Well, we did say a downloaded car, so I assume no other poor sod is missing the one I now have.

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        January 3, 2012 12:03 PM

        Hell yea I would, but only, uhhh, to try it out and see if I want to buy it or not.

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        January 3, 2012 12:20 PM

        Sure thing. It would be a Volvo.

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        January 3, 2012 12:23 PM

        I don't want a car but I'd download a top of the like $15k bicycle.

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        January 3, 2012 12:36 PM

        Car would probably put me over my badwidth cap, but I'd pay for extra to download a car

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        January 3, 2012 12:52 PM

        o/

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        January 3, 2012 2:11 PM

        [deleted]

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        January 3, 2012 2:28 PM

        As soon as they release a 3D printer that can print a Ferrari I'll print the shit out of them.

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        January 3, 2012 6:25 PM

        No way, man. I'd keep my car in the cloud.

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        January 3, 2012 8:43 PM

        Does this downloadable car come with a title that is recognized by my state? Also do I have to throw several thousand dollars worth of scrap steal and rubber into the theoretical 3D printer that produces the car?

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        January 3, 2012 8:45 PM

        [deleted]

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        January 4, 2012 12:49 AM

        I would, just to print it out on my 3d printer :D

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      January 3, 2012 10:47 AM

      I wish I pirated Crysis 2, I bought that game and it was a waste of money. Then they put out a DLC a few weeks after release, fuck you EA.

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        January 3, 2012 10:48 AM

        I never bothered to play it. Still sitting on my Steam account. There were far too many good games to play a mediocre one that didn't even look as good as the original.

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          January 3, 2012 10:49 AM

          You should try it out. I really enjoyed it. The haters tend to be more vocal though :)

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          January 3, 2012 10:54 AM

          The SP was actually really good. Not as good as Crysis 1 but pretty good nonetheless. MP was pretty forgettable.

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            January 3, 2012 12:02 PM

            Crytek is horrible at multiplayer for some reason. Crysis and Crysis wars were horribly optimized for online play.

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          January 3, 2012 11:55 AM

          had it remained on steam, i would have bought it. maybe i would never have played it, but thats pretty common for us icon collectors. pulling it from steam means i will never have its icon

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        January 3, 2012 10:51 AM

        Wow jesus christ.
        Videogames are fucking amazing creations, one of the greatest things of the modern age. And you just wanna steal them because you feel entitled.

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          January 3, 2012 10:56 AM

          *puts on youtube music playlist*

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          January 3, 2012 11:20 AM

          I'd put video games low on my list of the greatest things of the modern age.

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            January 3, 2012 11:21 AM

            Sup Алты́нного во́ра ве́шают, а полти́нного че́ствуют.

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            January 3, 2012 12:04 PM

            Get a nice PC. As it stands consoles are 6 or 7 year-old tech. I wouldn't call them modern.

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              January 3, 2012 12:27 PM

              I have a modern pc.

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              January 3, 2012 12:28 PM

              And my definition of modern age is a bit larger than 7 years.

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                January 3, 2012 1:44 PM

                Well, if you're applying that to computing technology then you're doing it wrong.

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                  January 3, 2012 6:19 PM

                  I learned in the university that the modern age has started somewhere around 1500.

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            January 3, 2012 1:20 PM

            I think you'd be looking at it in the wrong way, then. They kinda represent a nice culmination of technology, art, and entertainment.

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          January 3, 2012 1:46 PM

          Agreed with that whole statement. Also a consumer speaking with their wallet kinda looses it's power when that said consumer pirates the software instead.

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          January 3, 2012 4:30 PM

          Pretty much humanity summed up if you haven't noticed already...

          We consume.

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        January 3, 2012 10:54 AM

        i beat it and enjoyed it and the MP was a good twist on the CoD formula

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        January 3, 2012 10:56 AM

        Do you pirate games otherwise?

        People are going to jump on you, but there is a huge difference between saying you wish you pirated a game because you feel like you didn't get your moneys worth and actually doing it.

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          January 3, 2012 11:57 AM

          Im not going to say I pirate or not. Im saying I wish I did, the game was not worth the money and I feel ripped for the 5 hours I got out of the game. Hell I get more time out of MW3 and BLOPS.


          Company's wonder why people Pirate games, well stop releasing broken over priced games and we will buy them. I actually own almost all of the games mentioned in the article.

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            January 3, 2012 1:40 PM

            Let's pretend you couldn't actually download games to steal them. Let's say you had to walk into a store and take it from the shelf, put it in your coat and walk out.

            You think that because you're poor and the game is bad that it's okay? I posted this above, but you've lost touch with reality. People pirate games because they're pathetic, no other reason.

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              January 3, 2012 1:52 PM

              I often wander how many pirates are so poor that they have the latest iPhone and just got that 200 pair of Oakleys. Your last statement along with Chipwarriors comments pretty much sum up my feeling on this.

              You know I did pirate Crysis 2 a month before I bought the game full price on release say and I can still say that the game was disappointing in some cases but fun enough that my only regret is that I should've waited for a sale. Bad decision on my part on paying full price, yes, but I'm still glad that I paid for something with my hard earned money as oppose to stealing it.

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            January 3, 2012 1:47 PM

            You're off your nut if you think its justified

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      January 3, 2012 10:48 AM

      This makes me laugh for some reason.

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      January 3, 2012 10:48 AM

      if only it was available on steam....

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        January 3, 2012 11:05 AM

        Technically it is at least for those that bought it before the EA/Valve dust up over DLC delivery rights.

        Piracy probably would have never got a foothold If the publishers and to an extent the game developers weren't so slow to adapt to the internet age and actually had legal solutions to what the consumers wanted. Most industries put their heads in the sand and hope the new technologies go away as seen time and time age like the VHS/DVR, digital music, digital video, and so on. They cry foul because they initially had no clue how to deal with the new technology.

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          January 3, 2012 11:16 AM

          but people bootleg tapes and record films in theatres and have been doing this stuff since the 70s at the least. the sad fact is that human beings are unscrupulous, and if we're given the opportunity to get something for free instead of paying for it, if the work required isn't back-breaking, people are going to take that opportunity.

          even if developers came up with some insane ultra-strong non-invasive copy protection, there would still be people out there working to beat it and once they did, the floodgates would be open once more. what's required is a shift in cultural attitudes away from entitlement and towards appreciation for creators, where people acknowledge that music/movies/games are entertainment products created by a group of creative professionals and they should be compensated accordingly for their work, and that piracy directly affects their industry and their livelihood. developers, publishers, musicians, filmmakers, and executives have all tried to address this issue in a variety of ways - from really reasonable, level-headed approaches like Louis CK's to shit like "BITTORRENT KILLED ROCK AND ROLL" being thrown around by the RIAA, but the public at large are really stubbornly entrenched in the entitlement philosophy that's at the heart of the issue.

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      January 3, 2012 10:54 AM

      Isn't that a good thing? It means the product was desirable, or getting it legally was totally terrible. I imagine it was more the former... Did they have good sales?

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        January 3, 2012 11:03 AM

        I'd blame it more on it being inaccessible on steam for a period of time when EA pulled their new products due to the DLC storefront debacle + Origin unveiling PR nightmare.

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      January 3, 2012 10:58 AM

      Its all about the right pricing and accessibility.

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        January 3, 2012 11:08 AM

        It has nothing to do with price otherwise people wouldn't pirate 99 cent songs. Free is not a price. It's purely an accessibility thing. It's there, it's easy, and yeah, it's free.

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          January 3, 2012 11:18 AM

          It absolutely has to do with price. I agree that convenience is probably more prominent than pricing, but you're basically saying that if the pricing was right, no one would pirate. Which is clearly wrong, if you price correctly, you'll see an increase in sales, but not a complete absence of piracy. There are those who will pirate regardless of price, and there are those who will buy something for cheaper that they would otherwise pirate.

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            January 3, 2012 3:24 PM

            While price is a tiny part of it, it has way more to do with accessibility and convenience. Quite frankly, it's easier, faster and there's less hassle for people to pirate games than to buy them. It's available instantly the second they decide they want it, they don't have to fish out their credit card and they don't have to deal with crappy DRM shit. Games could be $0.10 and people would still rampantly pirate them because it's easier and people are lazy. They'd come up with some retarded justification for it anyway and continue on with the status quo.

            Until the industry finds some way of making it just as easy (or easier) to download and purchase games as it is to pirate them then they will continue to fail at monetizing people playing the games. And just a quick note, that's what a "lost sale" actually is. It's not whether or not you would have purchased the game in the first place, it's the company not generating income from someone playing the game.

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              January 6, 2012 8:13 PM

              That's what a "lost sale" is to a publisher, because they want to blame lower revenues on piracy rather than other factors. And it's a convenient scapegoat to say "gee boss, it's not my fault, look at these torrent numbers!"

              In general, it's already is easy to download games legally. How many modern games are not available in digital stores? Although it would be nice if I could fire up Steam and have access to every publisher's catalog, I've given up on this ever happening. Quite frankly, Steam was 100% right to take a stand on DLC being sold through their service as well. It is not convenient for me to jump through hoops on websites and buy XX points then purchase DLC.

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          January 3, 2012 11:44 AM

          It's easier to pirate a 99 cent song at a higher bitrate not tied to any stupid itunes library than it is to go buy it.

          It's significantly less hassle to buy a game on Steam than to pirate it, and when it's 75% off or just really cheap in the first place, it's much more convenient to buy it and know you have an easily accessible from anywhere genuine version for life.

          If this was on Steam it would've sold a lot more.

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            January 3, 2012 1:58 PM

            You say that like Portal 2 wasn't #5 on that list at 3.2m copies. Crysis 2 was on Steam for several months too. Maybe not a great game, but people need to stop hiding behind Steam as if it does a great service at anti-piracy. It's great for customers for multiple reasons and that's why we like it, but it doesn't really do shit against piracy.

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              January 3, 2012 2:04 PM

              Steam absolutely curtails piracy every single day it exists and continues to offer games conveniently and cheaply.

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                January 3, 2012 2:29 PM

                I'd love to believe that and I do think it's the best thing out there that may be beneficial in this way, but I see no evidence.

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                  January 3, 2012 3:15 PM

                  Hi there, I'm a pirate. I pirate all my music. I hacked my Wii and I pirate all my wii games. I used to pirate all my PC games.

                  http://steamcommunity.com/id/Alexrose

                  "View all 318 games"

                  I am living proof that Steam prevents piracy.

                  I used to buy all my Wii games, but it's significantly less hassle for me to put some wupload URLS into FRD and walk off, then stick that on a hard drive with WBFS manager and then on my Wii I just boot up my Configurable USB launcher and it has EVERY ONE of my Wii games on it. No changing discs, I get my games months before they come out in the UK, all Rock Band DLC is free and I don't have to wait for my games to be mailed to me.

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                  January 3, 2012 3:22 PM

                  I used to pirate games all the time, because I had no money. I also had lots of time to play many games and I didn't have any consoles. Now I have money, and much less time, so I buy all my games, but only those that are on Steam (and for the most part, on sale - with a few exceptions). I just can't be bothered to get them any other way, as any other way will ultimately be less convenient.

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      January 3, 2012 10:58 AM

      with how much money people throw at games, who really gives a shit anymore. so some are pirated. it's not changing the massive money being made by the industry is long as they stick to simple notions like not treating gamers like shit.

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        January 3, 2012 11:00 AM

        All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 12:43 PM

          So where is my justice when I buy a 60 game on the PC and then play the pos for 5-10 minutes and realize it won't work. Looking at you Rage. Or how about any other game with no demo that I pay full price for and don't like?? No aftermarket for PC. I buy all my games on steam when they hit a low price point. I buy maybe one or two games full price anymore. I have been burned to many times and rarely finish games anymore. I know where the pirates are coming from though. Most PC publishers have taken a steaming shit on their PC users and the ones that become early adopters usually have to take a double dose of that shit because the game won't work or needs a patch or is just subpar to the console version. Don't sit there and act like these people"pirates" are the only evil of PC gaming. Thank God for Valve or I would have taken up a lesser hobby like reading by now.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 12:50 PM

            None of that makes people entitled to steal creative works.
            Even a bum game like rage has a huge amount of artwork and asset generation, coding, and just overall design and coordination from douzens of dudes over many years.

            To say, oh well I didn't like it so I stole it. thats incredibly shitty

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 1:27 PM

              You're getting away from the OP's point. He's trying to argue that piracy isn't really affecting the creators of these works, because the modern way creative works are distributed allows for super moneyhats unheard of in past eras.

              I think it's an interesting argument, and probably mostly true for some massive games. Unfortunately, since this industry is retarded, neither you nor I can speak to the truth of this claim with any kind of hard evidence. All we have to go on is the word of the publishers that piracy is murdering them, and fuck believing those dudes.

              • reply
                January 4, 2012 4:39 AM

                if that's his argument he isn't making his case. Seems like a bad excuse that pirates use to continue pirating guilt free.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 1:41 PM

          I thought it was homeopathy, not evil?

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 11:01 AM

        It is greatly affecting the quality of products if you're a PC gamer. Whether downloads are lost sales or not, developers / publishers certainly perceive a problem and won't risk making a PC centric title. 10 years ago there were plenty of PC specific titles, now most AAA PC titles are multiplatform ports.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 11:04 AM

          This is the most stable this industry has EVER been. How about a story about that. Do you not recall the 90s, and 00s how many established, awesome developers would go out of business all the time?

          Now you can make a really crappy indie game with a cute character in it and make a living because of XBLA and Steam and things like that. That's awesome. What's to complain about? The only losers are the ones that get so corporately driven that no one has fun with their games and they stop buying them.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 11:08 AM

            you're right, piracy is fine

            • reply
              January 4, 2012 4:43 AM

              Yeah... the industry would actually survive better if all the consumers were pirates :/

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 11:15 AM

            Huh? I don't care about stability, and i'm not sure I buy that argument -- devs still go under today like they did in the past. Compare PC titles from 2004 or 1998 to the titles we get today. There should be no question that the quality of what we get now is substantially - games with hard coded 30 fps caps (la noire), mouse lag issues with vsync, and bad ports (GTA IV), etc. 10 years ago games were created specifically with the power of the PC in mind with big production values...not anymore. Even ID software has jumped ship because of fucking pirates.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 11:16 AM

              So what i'm saying is that pirates are the AXIS OF EVIL. Watch out , GWB and Dick Cheney are coming after you!

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 11:20 AM

              well your last example of id software says it all. their games have lacked fun for about a decade. people didn't rush out to buy a buggy 7 hour game that was beaten to market by a bunch of other post apocalyptic games like Fallout and Borderlands that had 50 hours of content each? wow, must be pirates. fuck sakes it's not that simple.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 12:50 PM

                Peoples best memory of id is multiplayer. Their games had legs because of multi...

                • reply
                  January 6, 2012 8:19 PM

                  I'm pretty sure id has gone on record saying Q3 didn't sell that well, because it was multiplayer only. JC also said in an interview that he doesn't have complete control over products now because last time he exercised that right was Q3.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 1:29 PM

              So how do you explain things like Deus Ex:HR, or The Witcher 2?

              • reply
                January 4, 2012 4:49 AM

                So a few games out of 1000's being of a decent quality some how disproves his point. Ok........

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 1:13 PM

            Your sentence about how easy it is to make money with an indie game is flat out wrong. Easier than back in the industry's infancy, but it's by no means easy at all.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 1:17 PM

              ...and there are developers closing all the time. Your whole post is retarded.

              • reply
                January 4, 2012 4:51 AM

                Yes it was... but people need to desperately justify their piracy no matter how illogical the justification.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 11:04 AM

        It leads to some outcomes certain gamers don't like, such as an increasing console focus, as piracy is (assumed to be) less of an issue). It also fucks up the margins in the industry, so big behemoths like EA/Activision can suffer some piracy while pumping out games they know people will buy, such as CoD games, but are less likely to take chances.

        And who likes having their work stolen?

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 11:07 AM

          Also it becomes super risky for people to make proper self contained SP experiences. They always need an online mode, or the promise of extra content/dlc/facebook integration to reduce the appeal to pirates (a lot of that stuff imo can severely dilute a games intended experience)

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 11:27 AM

            Tacked-on MP has plenty of causes, but I'd agree that piracy is one of them.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 11:13 AM

        If you're a developer that makes PC games then the piracy thing is a big problem for you. Notice how the most pirated PC game was pirated almost 4.5 times more than the top console game. All other things being equal, wouldn't you pick the development target that has smaller piracy numbers?

        If you're a developer that makes multiplatform games that include the PC then the piracy is a big problem for you since some number of console gamers who would buy your game on a console will instead just pirate it on the PC. That number is impossible to determine but it could potentially be actual lost sales.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 11:19 AM

      It's odd to me that Crysis 2 is the most pirated game since usually the most pirated game is also the most popular game of the year and Crysis 2 was far from that.

      Makes me wonder what the other factors are. Could it be that most people didn't think it would be as impressive in SP as Crysis 1 was due to the multiplatform aspect and so they pirated it to see? Could it be a fuck you for the on-again, off-again Steam bullshit EA pulled? Could it be a perverse "fuck you" to Cerli over his piracy concerns or multiplatform aspirations from vengeful PC gamers?

      I figured that Skyrim would be the most pirated, what with it being SP-only and all.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 11:24 AM

        Here is a hint, think of the release dates on these games :p

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 11:43 AM

          MW3 was released three days before Skyrim and it was #2 on the list.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 11:47 AM

            Because people respect Skyrim as a game worth paying for.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 11:51 AM

              People are downloading everything thinking they're entitled to it with no remorse--- and that is bullshit whether it is #1 or #20.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 11:52 AM

              I think that has a lot to do with it. Many people believe in giving Bethesda hard-earned cash.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 11:54 AM

                Personally I do not think people who pirate give a shit about things like that.

                • reply
                  January 3, 2012 12:06 PM

                  I dunno, looking at shit like Reddit people seem happy to pirate EA and Activision games for percieved slights; because they support minecraft or whatever.

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 12:15 PM

                    People always seek to justify immoral or unethical behavior. This is no different.

                    • reply
                      January 3, 2012 12:56 PM

                      yeah, and it seems like some people find it easier to do with Crytek / EA. Some people will always find an excuse, but I'm not going to dismiss the possibility of a population that finds it easier to pirate from certain scapegoat companies

                • reply
                  January 3, 2012 12:14 PM

                  As a former person who used to do this, yeah, I gave a shit about it. I always bought Blizzard stuff because their products were always good.

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 12:15 PM

                    Also because it's hard to pirate wow.

                    • reply
                      January 3, 2012 1:36 PM

                      Not really.

                    • Ebu legacy 10 years
                      reply
                      January 3, 2012 3:42 PM

                      It's actually easier than many stand-alone. You can't pirate the first M, but you can certainly pirate the MORPG part.

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 12:20 PM

                    Well then you are rare. People I knew that pirated did not care who the developer was. Shit they might not even have cared about the game that much, they just had to have it.

                    • reply
                      January 3, 2012 3:29 PM

                      You make it sound like it's an addiction. THEY JUST HAD TO HAVE THEIR FIX OF PIRACY. THEY DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO PLAY THE DAMNED GAME, THEY JUST COULDN'T RESIST LAUNCHING MUTORRENT.

                      I used to pirate all my PC games, and it was always down to convenience and lack of money, and I'm sure it's much the same for lots of people. And there's one point noone seems to latch onto, and a big point of my piracy: Your PC specs.

                      I pirated Oblivion years ago. I've purchased 3 copies of Morrowind (Disc (lost), disc again and Steam) and 2 copies of the Bloodmoon/Tribunal pack (disc and Steam), but I didn't have a clue whether my PC would even run Oblivion, I'd have to wait for my game to come in the mail, and moreover, it'd been out for so long by the time I had a PC worthy of running it that Bethesda would never see any income from me purchasing that game. It wasn't being printed anymore. It was more convenient for me to pirate it, and it didn't make a difference to Bethesda if I did.

                      A year and a half later I bought it on a Steam sale, and I preordered Skyrim in advance.

                      Piracy can be for a variety of reasons, and you cannot examine the number of pirated copies of a product for indication of revenue lost, because you just don't have any idea how many of those would have been sales, and how many will become sales later on.

                      The point here, though, is that Skyrim sold way more than Crysis 2, and it's a single player game, but it was pirated less. That can't be portrayed as some coincidence. People bought Skyrim because they had confidence that it was going to be high quality gameplay and worth every pound. Crysis 2 got pirated more than Skyrim because Steam got removed as a platform, because they didn't know what to expect from a game that was made on consoles, because other people told them it wasn't worth it and because they didn't know if it would be a quality title.

                      • reply
                        January 3, 2012 4:45 PM

                        This.

                        I used to pirate a ton of games as well, just from sheer convenience. If someone LEGITIMATELY BUYING their game and then sharing it on the internet with you counts as stealing, then don't any of you EVER borrow or accept as a gift a used game from a friend, because you're not compensating the developers for their work and you are stealing! Because getting or playing a game for free is theft no matter what, right? ;)

                        • reply
                          January 4, 2012 6:53 AM

                          1 person buying a game and letting someone borrow it isn't the same as 1 person buying a game and letting 4 million people borrow it.

                          In many cases stealing is dependant on the reaction and implicit or explicit guidelines of the person being stolen from.

                          Going into a store and walking out with two cokes on a 2 for 1 offer doesn't mean that you stole the second can for example.

                      • reply
                        January 3, 2012 6:21 PM

                        Crysis 2 was pirated more because it came out 8 months earlier than Skyrim.

      • Zek legacy 10 years
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        January 3, 2012 12:04 PM

        Crysis has a lot of fans among the hardcore tech savvy demographic because of its use as a benchmark, and I would imagine that those guys are the most likely to pirate games, so it makes sense they would want to play the sequel.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 12:53 PM

          yep. despite crysis 1 having a demo, people thought they needed to demo... the whole thing...

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 12:06 PM

        People pirated it to test their systems, just like they did the first one. Oddly enough, they didn't push the envelope with this game because they were tired of people stealing the first one.. yet it still happened.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 12:10 PM

          I wonder if they included the leaked build in the download numbers as well. When that got leaked tons of people wanted to see what it was like.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 12:11 PM

          Bullshit they did.

          People used this excuse for the first Crysis, even though it had a demo. Both games had pre-release demos people could have used to test their systems (although, Crysis 2's was multiplayer only).

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 12:56 PM

            Crytek originally said it, not me. :)

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 3:07 PM

        This is really surprising to me too. But I think it's related to people pirating the game to "check out the graphics" and to see if they were really better then Crysis 1 even if they were not entirely interested in the game (personally I think Crysis 1+2 receive way too much hate for a game that lets you play it how you want. I guess those who don't enjoy it have themselves to play for not playing it in a way they would enjoy it).

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 11:45 AM

      Crysis 2 was also one of the most hyped games of the year and also one of the crappiest games of the year. I wonder if there is a correlation between marketers telling you to BUY BUY BUY and your friends telling you it is a PoS, so you want to try it first?

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 11:47 AM

        Thats completely subjective. Plenty of people enjoyed it (including myself) and it received generally favorable reviews. I know reviews aren't always the best indication, but to say its just the crappiest game of the year isn't true, IMO.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 11:58 AM

          I with you man, C2 was an awesome game the stupid media made cracks at it and people listened and the beef with no DX11 at launch was mental or that it looked like ass and Crysis 1 is better. :( made me sick.

          Even when it launched the DX9 was impressive(best DX9 game possibly(graphics)), the main thing was the gameplay was rad and the game was well built. I had no beefs.

          I blame the media they shit all over it and made people go "can it really be shitty?" This is why the numbers are so bad not because its a shitty game people did not want to commit to it. Of course that's wrong and the people that did that are whack but that is the sign of the times. Media yet again showed their power off, it worked wonders :(

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 12:18 PM

          It most definitely didn't live up to the hype in numerous forms, including being completely buggy, glitchy, terrible AIs...

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 12:21 PM

            ? really, what game did you play.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 12:23 PM

            examples? I'm not saying you're wrong, its just that my experience with C2 was completely different. I didn't experience any bugginess.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 12:25 PM

              I got stuck in the terrain and also had to reload it after a cutscene stuck. Other examples can be found in my other posts below.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 11:52 AM

        Bullshit. Subjectivly I really enjoyed it; and I find it hard to see how people can write the whole thing off as totally crappy. It looked great, had varied gameplay for a FPS, and the action was well paced in the 2nd half

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 12:19 PM

          It looked worse then the first one and the only 'variance' involved stealthing through an entire level with AI too stupid to find you.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 12:28 PM

            The suit powers and vertical gameplay arenas made it so much more varied than the typical linear FPS with the possible exception of Bulletstorm and like super high end Quake 1 gameplay.

            I think that maybe the AI pose less of a threat than in the first game, due to the increased complexity in the level geometry; but they're still fun to pick off. And fighting the aliens was much improved.

            To say the graphics are worse is just delusion. Crysis 1 looked great, but it was all an island with some nice vistas. Crysis 2 had more interesting visual effects and better design and variety from level to level. Going into the warzone city in the dark; or emerging from the rubble in the morning light. It was awesome, of all the games that take place in a fucked up New York, that game does it best. Seeing the ground split open from sewers to rooftop, and being able to traverse it all was great.

            I loved Crysis 1, and its a worthy sequel

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 12:30 PM

              When I play fps I just want good weapons, good graphics and plenty of shit to blow up. Uhh, C2 satisfied me ;)

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 12:32 PM

              Crysis 1 most definitely looked better then 2. You're under the assumption that because it's newer it looks better. It doesn't.

              Crysis 1 was designed for computers after consoles were released, Crysis 2 is designed for consoles which came before Crysis 1. Even with everything turned all the way up it still looks worse then the first one.

              I don't think there is any excuse to see AI doing tactical rolls in the middle of a open area, spinning around twice although while you're shooting at them, and then firing two shots at you before dieing. It looks like a silly ballet.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 12:33 PM

                I just don't see this. Are you comparing this to C2 with all of the addons? DX11, HD textures, and tessellation and such? I thought C2 looked better.

                • reply
                  January 3, 2012 12:36 PM

                  Look up a review on C2 tesselation on Techreport. All the extra textures are added to completely retarded items in the game, including overly tesselated road barriers and planks of wood(most things aren't tesselated), and a tesselated water mesh that you can't see when you aren't anywhere near water, but is still rendered in full.

                  Part of what I meant about buggy and glitchy.

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 12:38 PM

                    True, but since tessellation was added after you can't really pick and choose where its done. They just applied it everywhere, thats my understanding.

                    Most devs can't build a game with tessellation from the ground up because the market is catering to xbox 360/ps3

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 12:42 PM

                    When someone on the internet says this looks like crap

                    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197995647432/screenshots/?p=1&filter=app_99830 (this is pre-HD textures)

                    it's that acny dude meme rating models 6 out of 10.

                    Seriously, look at this consolised bullshit. Remember when videogames looked better than this? Because I don't.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 4:56 PM

            I disagree with it looking 'worse' . Technically it looked fucking amazing. Yes it didnt have the tropical island/mountain/beach/wide open vista's but this doesnt mean it looks worse, it just means its not set on a fucking island.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 11:53 AM

        Crysis 2 was in no way "crappy". Learn to analyze better.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 11:56 AM

          This. Also even if it were "crappy", that isn't a justification to steal it.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 12:06 PM

            That's the funny thing... you hear it's a crappy game, so it's not worth paying for, but it's worth stealing? Why would you want to pirate a crappy game?

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 12:49 PM

              To stick it to The Man for ruining his life with such crappy games, of course.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 12:23 PM

          Lets see... crappy AI, crappy graphics, crappy gameplay, crappy storyline, glitches and bugs (which I would call crappy all around), lack of mod support (which is crappy considering the first one), crappy drm, it was heavily consolized (also crappy).

          Metacritic gives it a 86... surprise surprise considering how much they dumped into marketing. Users give it a 65... Hrmmmm...

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 12:27 PM

            abrasion where ya been bro ;)

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 12:30 PM

            The consolised argument is just so lame. The game didn't noticeably suffer from being on consoles. It's just weird fanboyism/jealousy. The console versions looked surprisingly great too, visually the best ports up until BF3 imo.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 12:31 PM

              He is not lying = Truth ^^^ this

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 12:34 PM

              Yeah it was silly that I'm comparing it against the first one and that the menus are unintuitive and a pain in the ass to navigate... or that the graphics are worse then the first one... or that the overall level of quality is outright worse...

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 1:49 PM

              The whole consolized thing just needs to go away. If there are issues then it is a lazy port. Do not blame consoles for developers fucking up.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 12:54 PM

        I remember a lot more dislike when it came out. Are we all white knighting it now because we feel bad about how many people pirated it? I sure got the idea that it was bad.

        Anyway, I do think this particular title was somewhat doomed. People wanted to see how it stacked up to its predecessor, especially in light of what many assumed to be consolization, and because of said (feared) consolization didn't trust it to actually be good. Wanting to see + not really wanting to play probably contributed to its unfortunate piracy. It was (to a degree) like asking people to pay for a benchmark or a scene demo

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 12:57 PM

          There was a leak too, which went around youtube showing a buggy version with busted textures. Which surely gave some people reason to decide they could steal it.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 2:04 PM

        Agreed.

        I bought the game and was disappointed with it. It was extremely buggy and linear. I was hoping multiplayer would be good as it looked very COD like. Unfortunately multiplayer was boring and also had lots of bugs.

        I told a few friends not to buy it, and am quite sure they pirated it instead.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 12:09 PM

      Pc gaming is dying because pc gamers are killing it :(

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 1:43 PM

        PC GAMERS:

        I love them

        I hate them

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 1:52 PM

        Lol PC gaming is dying. Not like I've heard this for the past TWENTY FIVE YEARS.

        And yet, the Witcher 2 sold great.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 12:21 PM

      Crysis is cursed. There is this stigma, this mojo that floats around it. Crysis 1 was a great game. Dont argue with me on this dudes. But it got super hyped as this technological bleeding edge iD hayday reborn thing that required a super computer to run at playable settings. This all happens during the era of the console, when people are not buying and scrabbling for the 5000$ PC any more, and modest machines can run everything on the market and run it well.

      Who the fuck wanted something that would not run unless you had an absurd machine? Not many people, not enough people. But the kicker was, that it would run just find on a modest machine, and look great, and was fucking awesome. But Crytek had built this hype around it as the system killing behemoth, hoping to ride this no-longer-existent wave of PC horsepower addicts who would go out and build a new PC for this one game and fellate CERVAT YERLI all the way to the bank. It didnt work. In fact, people resented it. So us PC games, being the entitled pricks we are, demonized it. It was the only way to cope. We hiveminded this fucker into some kind of shitty corridor shooter set in the woods with horrible AI, terrible controls, stupid storyline and graphics that did not justify the requirements (requirements that were largely not true, due to the aforementioned hyper hype that had been built around this game).

      It got pirated. It still sold really well, damn well IMO, but it got pirated probably more than most games because noone with a modest machine was going to risk 50 bucks on this game that would probably not run and was just a shitty game. So people pirate it, so they can see how it looks and check out the bleeding edge and see what the most advanced system killer in over a decade would look like for themselves without the cost. Then along comes CERVAT YERLI, standing with his cock un-fellated in the corner with a pile of cash that was simply not high enough to suit him. Bitter unfellated CERVAT YERLI then does his shit talking on the PC community, while dreaming about the money and bitches he will get from crysis 2 on consoles. He goes on and on, and says mean things, and blames his not quite highly successful enough PC game development house's woes and lack of cocaine on the PC PIRATES that are keeping his dick dry. Crysis 2 comes out, and the bitter entitled pricks that we are, well we dont purchase the game. And also, vast quantities pirate it, largely out of spite. Just look at the metacritic.com reviews of bitter hate. Look on any gaming message board at the raging firestorm of shit about Crysis 2. Look at the general internet hivemind bile about this game, and be not surprised.

      Basically, its all Cryteks fault, and mainly CERVAT YERLI.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 12:47 PM

      Side note: I probably would have bought it if it was on steam during the last sale. As it is now I have plenty of other games to keep me happy. That's a lost sale for EA right there. So many impulse buys...

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 12:53 PM

        If it doesn't appeal to you to the point where you don#t buy it. That's totally fair enough.
        My grandmother didn't buy Crysis 2 either, it's not a lost sale.

        But pirates just say "well I didn't think it was worth paying for, but I still wanted it anyway" and fucking steal it.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 1:29 PM

          With that mentally, what specifically do they really think is worth paying for?

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 1:33 PM

            I dunno, probably some crazy unattainable or weirdly specific standards.
            Like the intersection of perfect graphics, gameplay and PC exclusivity, but published by an indie dev on steam

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 1:44 PM

          How does your grandmother not buying compare to my case at all? I would have bought it and was vaguely interested in it but since it was on Steam I didn't have the temptation to buy it so I didn't. Point being they can fight all they want about pirates but when there's a market for sales from impulse buys (from a digital distribution system they do not want to use) and they don't take advantage of it then they're shooting themselves in the foot.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 1:58 PM

            I think Chipwarrior is more commenting on someone having legitimate reasons on not buying a game as oppose to piracy as a reference to lost sales.

            If you look at his first statement, "If it doesn't appeal to you to the point where you don't buy it, that's fair enough." He's saying that you have a valid reason as to why you don't buy it, but regardlelss, if someone uses similar reasons, yet still pirates then it makes their whole reasoning moot.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 12:51 PM

      What, no one mentioned Origin yet?

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 12:55 PM

      I don't know why people are saying things like "oh well come on, only 1 out of those 20 pirates ended up not paying for the game". A pirate is a pirate, they will download a game, try it, and if they don't like it they don't buy it, and if they like it they just think, "Well shit, I'll play it for free then!"

      I don't care what people say, it DOES hurt sales for a developer. Imagine if Notch the minecraft developer had 4 million copies of his game pirated. Don't you think they would be a substantial loss?

      However, I do hate DRM punishing the good customer, but that is how it has always been. The law abiding citizen gets the shit end of the stick when criminals cause problems.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 1:09 PM

      That's probably why I ran into 20 cheaters in every online MP session. Fuck them for not caring about their own game enough to actually have some anti-cheat protection. And double fuck them for using gamespy. I know it's depressing it was pirated so much but perhaps they should look at why that was and improve the player experiences in their future games so there's more incentive to drop that $60 as I did. It had plenty of DRM and we know all the good that does. I know bad word of mouth isn't the reason why this game was stolen so much, but it probably didn't help.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 1:20 PM

        The "why" is always "because they can." Any other supposed justification is just bullshit.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 1:48 PM

        The worst part is, the best way to say "Fuck you" to Crytel et al. would have been to not buy it, and not pirate it. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion, and they would know they shipped a turd.

        The fact that pirates took time to steal it means that it actually does have tangible value, and unfortunately gives them a scapegoat.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 1:45 PM

      The best anti-piracy is multiplayer and server-sided games. Even for single player it can work, e.g. Diablo 3 even in single player spawns the enemies/items/quests on the server-side, so it will be extremely difficult to "crack" something like that.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 1:52 PM

        The best anti-piracy is making a game people will want to pay for. Crysis 2 was not that game.

        Everything Valve makes, on the other hand...

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 1:55 PM

          I hate this game so much i'm going to steal it

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 1:58 PM

            I don't understand this post.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 2:08 PM

              People honestly shouldn't have to even explain it to you, Your statement along with his response speaks volumes.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 2:08 PM

              You should probably re-evaluate what you posted, then. creeping-death posted the condensed logic you're arguing.

              If the game is good enough to play, then it's good enough to pay money for.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 2:14 PM

                Yeah, I don't think creeping-death's post had anything to do with what I posted. And I think 'condensing' logic to the point where your new statement is unrecognizable from the original is ridiculous. Why not just argue with what's there, instead of inventing shit?

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 3:36 PM

            I don't think this will be worth playing, so I'm not going to invest they money that I have earnt in it, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and download it and see if I like it.

            That way I have transferable save files, which I would not do.. in a demo.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 1:58 PM

          no, that's good anti-piracy. the best anti-piracy is that which is unpirate-able =P

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 2:10 PM

            I kinda agree with that statement, but the issue is that there will always be people who still refuse to legitimately purchase something if they can steal a digital copy.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 2:18 PM

              Certainly, It's pretty hard to beat free!

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 2:20 PM

              Yes but then we get back into the downloaded =/= lost sales argument ad infinitum.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 2:25 PM

                The initial download to legitimate sale ratio for Crysis was 20:1. If even 5% of those downloads were a lost sale, then Crytek could have doubled their sales figures.

                With piracy rates as high as they are, you don't need a huge conversion rate to see a significant bump in sales. Even a 1% conversion rate would equate to 20% more sales, which is fucking huge.

                • reply
                  January 3, 2012 2:31 PM

                  Pretty much this. If you (kershner) are saying that absolutely none of it is a lost sale, i'd say you are off your rocker. Aside from the fact that sale or not -- pirates have no fucking right to steal shit -- The reality is, a percentage of it is lost sales. If 10% of the C2 downloads were converted into real sales that would easily hundreds of thousands of units.

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 2:36 PM

                    Problem is, calling pirates horrible deluded entitled cunts; while accurate, isn't really a solution.

                    Neither is making people think your game is worth more; but it likely helps.

                    • reply
                      January 3, 2012 2:39 PM

                      Calling them giant fuckbags is about all I can do.

                      Well, aside from buy more games than I actually play.

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 2:55 PM

                    Notice how both yours and walker's arguments rely on a pretty heavy "IF". This is where we get the ad infinitum.

                    • reply
                      January 3, 2012 3:02 PM

                      What?

                      Your initial statement was that downloads do not equate to lost sales. My statement was that, given reported piracy figures, even a percentage generally considered within the noise in basic statistical analysis is converted to sales, then sales figures would double.

                      How is it that you are completely oblivious to how monumentally huge that is? In industry, where groups are looking at ways to increase sales by 5-10%, you have a group of people already consuming your product where converting 1 in 200 of them would meet that goal. That's why piracy is such a big deal.

                      • reply
                        January 3, 2012 3:05 PM

                        Oh, and since you're probably going to miss the point :

                        You've got the bigger "IF" in this debate. While you may not be saying the exact word, its implicit and necessary for your position to have any weight.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 2:41 PM

                Yes, but how about we look at it from a different perspective. How many more legitimate sales could this game have gotten if there was no option to obtain an illegal digital copy? You can look at this much like Walker270 and Creeping-Death have responded. There are other factors to consider about this issue. Downloaded =/= sales is just one factor, you can't omit the others to truly understand the whole situation.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 1:58 PM

          [deleted]

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 2:12 PM

            Actually, I believe you are 100% wrong. I'm sure it doesn't seem like it since this is the stance the industry generally takes toward pirates, so maybe that makes it seem like an accepted norm, or something. Once the industry learns how to properly deal with pirates instead of the current black and white bullshit, I think you'll change your tune.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 2:19 PM

              Well, the more intelligent part has. See: Valve and Blizzard. Both have different ways of tackling it. Valve provides an excellent product that is more convenient than the pirate releases, they support their games, they're helpful and friendly to their PC crowd, and they release stuff for free just to support their existing base.

              Blizzard also releases an excellent product, but it is all based on dumb-client smart server design. Everything happens in the cloud, so it's much more difficult to steal.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 2:23 PM

                From what developers have been saying, battling piracy is mostly about stopping pre-release and Day-0 releases. Valve's solution combats both, and allows legitimate customers to play quicker by preloading the bulk of the game.

                The idea that portal is so awesome that people are just begging to buy it is kind of funny. The unfortunate reality is, if portal was released by another company in the same way, it would have been pirated to hell & back, and now people would be claiming it was a shitty game that deserved to be pirated.

                • reply
                  January 3, 2012 2:29 PM

                  Portal 2 was pirated to hell and back, just like every other game this year.

                  Were you not able to preload Crysis 2 on Steam?

                  I think the key difference between these two games is the same as it always has been in these kind of debates: perceived quality among the consumer base. More people want your game, more people buy your game, regardless of how easy media is to pirate.

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 2:32 PM

                    So, your position is developers need to create a game 100 million people will play so 5 million of them actually buy it?

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 2:32 PM

                    Your argument is so full of holes its ridiculous. Skyrim, MW3, SR3, Batman: AC are being torrented to hell and back with hundreds of thousands of downloads.

                    Obviously quality isn't an indicator of downloads.

                    • reply
                      January 3, 2012 2:38 PM

                      It's even more silly if you follow these threads over the past few years.

                      When Carmack made a statement about Doom 3's piracy, people (on this and other) forums were claiming Doom 3 was complete shit and deserved to be pirated. When Doom 3 came out, people griped about a few things but generally had favorable impressions of it.

                      When Iron Lore shutdown, people were saying similar things about Titan Quest. When Crytek first started talking about Crysis popularity, people said the same thing even though it was favorably received.

                      This whole piracy discussion is about as stupid and ignorant as you can possibly get. People ex post facto assign quality based on whether the developer says anything about piracy, independent of actual reviews, impressions, and quality.

                      Yes, good games can still sell a fuckton of units, but they still get pirated a fuckton more. If even a small percentage of those turn into additional sales, then it's a huge boost to the developer. That's why combating piracy is so important in the industry right now.

                      • reply
                        January 3, 2012 2:48 PM

                        A great example is Witcher 2. How many people legitimately bought it? CD Projeckt interviews have always been great and pro PC community in general. I think that the vast majority of the people here on the Shack would say that they've overally really enjoyed the game. CD projeckt even reasons favorably to the PC community despite saying that 4.5 million copies were pirated. Imagine how more more budget CD Projeckt can put towards future games if even 500k of those were ligitimate purchases.

                        • reply
                          January 3, 2012 2:54 PM

                          The actual, raw statements from Crytek, Ubisoft, and EA, when taken in context, aren't bad either.

                          The real problem is video game bloggers are a complete joke and spin a simple response to a straight forward question in an interview as an attack against the entire pc gaming community, and the community isn't intelligent enough to read past the ridiculously sensationalized headline.

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                            January 3, 2012 3:04 PM

                            Sadly that's how it is. People are reactive. We get so caught up in emotion that we fail to rationally read and understand informtion.

                            I also agree that the statements made, when interpretated in context, do put forth the gravity of the situation. At the same time, companies like Ubisoft prefer to punish legitimately paying customers. Like the new Ghost Recon Future Soldier. I was going to buy it day one for PC, but now that they've pretty much been douche bags about the game, I'm not purchasing it for any system at all and I do have the option to purchase it for any system. Now this is truly a lost sale.

                      • reply
                        January 4, 2012 11:54 PM

                        Both opinions will always exist about a a game, some will think its good some will not.

                        The core of getting good revenue is to tip the balance in the developers favor step by step.
                        By making a good game, AND (would put that "and" in 38 letter size if i could) make the people feel its a good game.
                        By giving good support after the sale.
                        By using an adecuate price.
                        Etc, Etc.

                        There will ALWAYS be pirates, there will always people that wont buy it, and there will always be people that buy it.
                        It doesn't matter if there are a lot of downloads of pirated games, what matters is that the revenue from the sales surpass the money invested by a good chunk.

                        In resume, some developers are getting it wrong, they are fighting against an unbeatable enemy that is piracy, instead of caring for the customers and making they feel the game is worth buying; see the half life games, we crave for them xD, because they are good, we know they are good, and that its going to have a good post sale support.
                        And if games just as good as Half life get pirated, it just shows that the pirates will always be there, and that some people will not stop pirating even if they will get AIDS when pirating a game.

                    • reply
                      January 3, 2012 2:52 PM

                      Dude how many times can you misunderstand my posts?

                      The post you responded to is in 100% agreement with your last sentence here.

                      The part that you're missing is that I suggest that quality is the determining factor of which games survive piracy, and which games become Crysis 2.

                      • reply
                        January 3, 2012 2:58 PM

                        But you're ignoring the counter arguments that several others have responded in which they stated that quality isn't the only determining factor in why a game is pirated. It's like you're only selectively reading what other people have replied in this subtread. YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU'RE ONLY LOOKING AT BITS AND PIECES INSTEAD OF THE WHOLE PICTURE.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 2:25 PM

                This is what I'm getting at. I don't even think solutions like what Valve and Blizzard have arrived at are necessarily the best possible solutions. You can add CD Projekt into that list as well. These companies thrive in the modern era of rampant piracy.

                The point is, they're willing to experiment and work with their consumer base and not 100% against it.

                • reply
                  January 3, 2012 2:46 PM

                  That's what I'm getting at. They're looking at providing a product for their customers who are willing and happy to pay them. The Indy Games Bundles are doing the same way. The problem is that the conversation is flawed, which is what Valve has been telling everyone for years.

                  You're not in a battle with customers unwilling to pay, and making life more difficult for the people who DO want to pay is a losing proposition. The correct solution is to address your paying audience by offering a good product at a good price and treat them with respect. Exactly as Gabe says: http://games.ign.com/articles/121/1213357p1.html

                  "Our goal is to create greater service value than pirates, and this has been successful enough for us that piracy is basically a non-issue for our company."

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 3:19 PM

                    Absolutely, this is the case. Gabe gets it. These other companies don't have the type of culture that accommodates this type of response to piracy.

                    • reply
                      January 3, 2012 3:23 PM

                      It's like that Star Trek TNG episode: "More shields!... the tremors are increasing, MORE SHIELDS!"

                • reply
                  January 4, 2012 7:00 AM

                  They Both have massive cash cows. They can afford to experiment. Everyone else can't.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 2:21 PM

              I have a friend who is pushing 40, completely capable of paying for his own video games, and flat out refuses to pay for them on the grounds that "I can steal it just as easily, so I do".

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 2:23 PM

                Yeah I know a lot of people who do this for TV and movies.

                • reply
                  January 3, 2012 2:41 PM

                  this happens a lot in europe because people just arnt prepared to wait 6 months for their favorite show to be shown on tv over here.

                  • reply
                    January 3, 2012 2:47 PM

                    The entire release window idea is utterly retarded in the Internet age. Movie companies need to mature.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 2:27 PM

                Yeah, I know plenty of people who I work with, who are well off yet are unapologetic about pirating games/movies/etc. Now i'm pretty chill in person and just laugh it off and joke about it but, there's plenty of people that have the means but just don't want to pay for stuff that they don't have to.

                Some would argue that piracy isn't a lost sale. I would argue that 15-20% of that is probably lost sales, if piracy was wiped off the planet i'm certain sales numbers would be far different.

                • reply
                  January 3, 2012 2:31 PM

                  Yeah something like this came up earlier today at work. A guy came in to our cube area (where the technical people are) and asked for options for streaming movies (legally). He said over Christmas he had trouble finding older stuff they were interested in on Netflix and On Demand. I suggested that Amazon streaming might be a viable option, but another guy just said "I just stream all my stuff off my NAS". Not only was this of zero help, but I know he got those movies illegally. People just seem to not give a shit about admitting this stuff.

              • reply
                January 3, 2012 2:53 PM

                That's the sad thing. People are more than able to pay legitimately but they would rather put their money towards something else while still enjoying the fruits of someone else's labor. While I totally detest SOPA, I can understand why content producers want to protect their IP.

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 2:49 PM

              [deleted]

            • reply
              January 3, 2012 4:25 PM

              You are both 10,000% wrong.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 5:48 PM

            you are wrong

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 8:46 PM

        [deleted]

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 1:52 PM

      AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 1:55 PM

      I didn't buy it but I would have considered it on a 50 - 75% off Steam xmas sale. Anyway, Crysis and Warhead were enough Crysis for me.

      So, what ever happened to Nomad and the squad leader guy who went back to the island before the nuke went off? Did they finish the Crysis story? C2 was in NYC or something iirc; so was it a completely different story?

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 3:00 PM

        Well, if you really want know... I actually haven't finished the game yet, but Prophet, the one who went back to the island, dies in the opening levels. He became infected with a disease of some kind that had an adverse affect with his nanosuit. You spend a good bit of the first parts of that game in his suit, and everyone thinks you're Prophet as a result. And for some reason the PMC group who's been sent to clean up the invasion is after you. I'm not 100% on the situation, but that's the basic stuff. Nomad hasn't shown up yet, and I'm not sure he will at all.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 3:09 PM

          The comic series explains what happens between Crysis 1 and 2.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 1:57 PM

      [deleted]

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 3:03 PM

      Here's a quote from Cevat Yerli almost 4 years ago, after the first Crysis sold 1 million copies: http://www.shacknews.com/article/52457/crysis-developer-moving-away-from

      "We are going to support PC, but not exclusive anymore," Crytek president Cevat Yerli told PC Play. "Similar games [to Crysis] on consoles sell factors of 4-5 more. It was a big lesson for us and I believe we won't have PC exclusives as we did with Crysis in future."... "We are suffering currently from the huge piracy that is encompassing Crysis," he continued. "We seem to lead the charts in piracy by a large margin, a chart leading that is not desirable."

      So, they did that, and here's the headline: "Crysis 2 most pirated game of 2011". How much more can Cevat Yerli ratchet back Crytek's efforts in gaming?

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 3:46 PM

        Crysis for iPhone / iPad

        "Most pirated app of 2012!"

        lmao :D

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 4:14 PM

        I wonder how many people that pirated Crysis did so just to benchmark their computer? For awhile it was the game that tested all new video cards and CPUs.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 4:37 PM

          There's definitely a thing here where Crytek seems to make games people want to pirate, but not games people want to buy. Not on PC anyway.

          That's okay, other people do attract PC sales, especially on Steam.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 4:46 PM

        Crysis 2 did sell about 3-4 times more, I believe.

        IIRC, Crysis had sold about a million copies when he made that statement. In less than half that time, Crysis 2 had already sold around three million.

    • DM7 legacy 10 years
      reply
      January 3, 2012 3:04 PM

      If it was on Steam for cheap I would buy it.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 3:37 PM

      Piracy Related Hijack:

      Is there a Steam equivalent for movies? I like watching movies, but I'll be fucked before I walk in to a store buy some shitty physical media that I would just end up ripping to my hard drive. I don't even have an optical drive in my computer any more because I don't want to deal with it.

      I would like to download (not stream) movies, legitimately, conveniently, quickly, at a price that isn't stupid (like 10 dollars or less). I don't want any DRM, and I want to be free to put it on whatever watching device/software I desire. Does such a thing exist? Because it would stop me from going to isohunt.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 3:48 PM

        Steam is DRM though, you can't exactly rip a game out of it and do whatever you want with it like you want to do with movies, you'll always have to go through Steam on a specific device.

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 4:05 PM

          Touche. You are right. Steam was a bad analogy.

          • reply
            January 3, 2012 5:03 PM

            It'd be cool if there was something like Netflix (given how it seems to exist on every device capable of playing movies at this point), but where you could buy movies (any movie, not from some small list) and own them forever, streaming them with nothing more than a log-in and using the appropriate app for it on whatever device was convenient.

            And by it'd be cool, I mean that's the only way I'm likely to buy movies in any kind of significant quantity ever again.

      • reply
        January 4, 2012 1:14 AM

        Amazon does that -- you can buy movies and download them and even get versions for mobile devices or stream to many settop boxes. DRM though, just like Steam

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 4:07 PM

      One of these again.

      Ok let me start by saying : PIRACY IS BAD

      Now. Do we know how many sales they had on the PC? If they sold a million or 2 copies that's about all you can expect on the pc these days (Unless you're Valve or Blizzard). I'd also like to know demographically where the pirating occurred. I'm sure a lot of it is in western world but a significant amount would be in the developing world.

      Being very familiar with the way of life in the developing world the people will go out of their way and save to afford a computer as it's seen as an "educational" tool for their kids. The kids (or parents) will not be able to afford the games so they'll pirate them. With the availability of fast internet increasing in these places it's only natural to see the increase in piracy.

      Not all of the people in the developing world will pirate and I'm not trying to reinforce the stereotypes, but I have lived there and I know how it works.

      What people don't report as dramatically as PC piracy is the console piracy. You can buy modchipped consoles and pirate games sell everywhere for a $1. That doesn't get reported as flamboyantly as PC piracythough. I personally think console piracy is much bigger than PC piracy overall (there's just more games for consoles).

      If Crytek feels that this is not worth their time or money they should stop developing for the PC and focus on what brings in the money. People will be upset and bitch but they got to look after themselves. They don't owe us anything and I'd rather see them abandon PC as a platform than close the shop or continue to work on a relationship that doesn't work for them.

      • reply
        January 6, 2012 8:53 PM

        "These days?" Why do people say this like PC games were selling millions left and right in the past? They certainly weren't outside of a few hit titles.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 4:17 PM

      Of the top 5 PC torrents, I've played 1 of them... Portal 2, which was easily worth the money I paid for preorder on Steam.

      The rest, no interest, even to pirate them. Guess I really am in the minority when it comes to the PC games I play.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 4:28 PM

      Put Crysis 2 on Steam again and I'll pick it up when it's on sale.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 4:32 PM

      But Skyrim is the best selling PC game of 2011 I belief, or will be soon, so the system works.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 4:54 PM

      I bought Crysis 2 and then I pirated it. What now, bitch?

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 5:44 PM

      The bigger news is Xenoblade Chronicles is coming out in the US - why were they denying it earlier? That definitely contributed to piracy.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 7:58 PM

      I think that there are a diverse amount of reasons to pirate. When I was younger, it was all about the hunt. Currently, I almost never pirate a game. The only reason I ever consider pirating a game anymore is when the game comes out 1 month to 1 week earlier than the release date. Especially if I already preordered the damn game.

      I really dislike the idea of someone else getting to play the game before me even though they didn't pay for it; or because brick and mortar stores won't allow digital distribution before the physical game hits stores.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 8:06 PM

      I'm sure they lost 10x more sales due to pulling it off Steam than they did from piracy.

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 11:08 PM

        bullshit

        • reply
          January 4, 2012 1:12 AM

          Games on steam sell really well, and im really really sure, that they would have sold a ton more if the game had been on steam and further increased the numbers if it had been in the steam winter sale.

        • reply
          January 4, 2012 5:30 AM

          I would buy it if it were on Steam. That's how I ended up getting Crysis... as a matter of fact I bought Warhead solely for being able to play the mechwarrior living legends. So you can also throw in supporting a mod community to increase sales for your products. Something else Devs hate to do because they feel it threatens their DLC sales.

    • reply
      January 3, 2012 8:10 PM

      ok hot shot pop quiz time. so u DL'd a car and a bear i guess but would you download a sandwich??? u wouldn't dare cheat antonio out of the opportunity for you to pay him for making you his famous BiG Beefer Italian meat'o'ball'o pepporonio special would u?

      • reply
        January 3, 2012 8:47 PM

        [deleted]

        • reply
          January 3, 2012 9:29 PM

          obv. subway is EA, jimmy john's is valve, quizno's is blizzard, and antonio is notch so in the end Gabe eats us all anyways ∴ imhotep is rainbows

    • reply
      January 4, 2012 1:09 AM

      Don't forget about the part of the story that EA made crytek build the game's DLCs in a way that specifically conflicted with the Steam system, to favor his download system "origin". Althought they deny it ofc.

      So Crysis 2 isn't exactly the best example for piracy.

      And in my opinion, if you look close at the game elements (developer relation with customers, DRM, quality of the game, features etc, etc) there is always a reason to why it's pirated a lot, and why some are pirated drastically more than others.

    • reply
      January 5, 2012 10:38 AM

      Kinect Sports is on that list? Wow.

    • reply
      January 5, 2012 12:19 PM

      They need to stop developing shitty Singleplayer games ( RPG EXCLUDED from this statement ).

      As a General rule most PC game BUYERS want Multiplayer.

      • reply
        January 5, 2012 12:20 PM

        And yeah Crysis2 had Multiplayer but it was some shit bastardised COD close thing that nobody wanted.

      • reply
        January 5, 2012 1:59 PM

        No, the general rule is pirates buy when pirating is problematic. Multiplayer games are harder to pirate, QED.

        Piracy = free stuff, nothing more, and nothing to do with the quality of the stuff.

        There may be a few weirdos who have some sort of moral crutch, who kind of feel bad about piracy, so they buy one or two "good games" in order to prove to themselves that if only the games were good enough they wouldn't pirate them. But that's laughable bullshit.

    • reply
      January 5, 2012 12:58 PM

      make a game people are willing to pay for sold on a platform more convenient than piracy

      or fuck off

      either way

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