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• **too where casual gaming is killing the market? : head crab
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  where has it ever had a huge learning curve. And no, System Shock 2 does not count. : shirif
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    a lot of multiplayer FPS games have/had huge learning curves to get good. : _jon
    • relatively. Now if you compare with rtses, the learning curve is flatter, shorter. : shirif
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    Tribes? : Crabs Jarrard
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      Original Rainbow Six? : Crabs Jarrard
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        I wouldn't call that steep. not at all, neither quake nor tribes or any other classic fpses. : shirif
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          If you think Tribes didn't have a steep learning curve you never played it. It took months, if not years ... : noxiousgg
          • Ohh man.. Tribes.. SHAZBOT! No, Yes, No, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, *drops det-pack and switches teams* Th... : HL3dsx
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            Again not what I would call a learning curve. More like repetition to master the correct timing and preci : shirif
            • I would argue that the former is a much more interesting kind of learning curve than the latter. Rote mem... : noxiousgg
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      tribes is a good example. Learning the disc thrower and skiing took a fair while. : Klebold
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        I got raped in that game the few times I played it. : Shai-Tan
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          when i was younger i would blame myself for being rubbish at games. With tribes i stuck at it and tried t... : Klebold
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            i was the same way, just played it because it was fun even though i sort of sucked. the difference, t... : Veegeezee
            • I miss the skill required in Tribes even if you got caught off guard you still had a shot at winning the ... : Blackdawgg
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        skiing was unintentional so I don't think it counts towards the design of the learning curve : RikiTiki2
        • What about Tribes 2, then - skiing was added intentionally in that, wasn't it? : Durajim
        • so was strafe jumping in quake, but it sure as hell added a whole lot of learning to the game(s) : synapse19
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    Unreal **, Quake **, CS **, the original Call of Duty, Wolf: ET, and many other games had very brutal and... : InfoBiter
    • remindes me of my first game online ever... Quake2. I was useing the keyboard to move around and typing t... : godm0de
    • Agreed, though developers went that way because persistence was more addictive and profitable. It's sad ... : the archvile
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      Yes, but once you learned how FPS worked the learning curves were drastically reduced. : Fred Garvin
      • Also, there is a big difference between the learning curve needed to play and the time put into a game to... : Fred Garvin
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    Quake : Godhatesfatpeople
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      http://www.own3d.tv/video/10284/This_is_Quake_3 : Godhatesfatpeople
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        Some of the mid-air rockets are incredible. : ShekkyBoy
        • Yeah, Q3 hit that sweet spot in my brain. Railing and rocket killing people in mid-air was so satisfying. : Godhatesfatpeople
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        God this makes me miss playing this for 10 hours a day. I was so fucking good, still pissed I quit playi... : HL3dsx
        • Me too. I think match making destroys the sense of community quake servers had. I played on the same serv... : chungathebunga
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          Q3 is the one game that constantly does this to me. Anytime I see a video for it I want to play it that i... : Godhatesfatpeople
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            Yeah soon as I heard the rocket launcher fire my memories all came back. Damn fun times lol. : HL3dsx
            • Indeed :) : Godhatesfatpeople
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        You know a game's weapons are designed well when the pros only use 2 of them. This is why I always dis... : OverloadUT
        • You should watch some modern competitive quake 3 matches. That is not how it is whatsoever. : mwasher
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          i don't think you've ever really played quake if you think it's just a 2 gun game : synapse19
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            I've played quake quite a bit; I just don't like the weapons at all : OverloadUT
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              i dont see how you not liking the weapons has anything to do with you saying people only use 2 of them : synapse19
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                In most of my experience with Quake, people used the rocket launcher and rail gun 90% of the time : OverloadUT
                • then if that was your experience, to put it frankly, you played against people that must've been pretty b... : synapse19
                • You know if you had said "people used the rocket launcher lightning gun and rail gun 90% of the time" I m... : InfoBiter
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              The weapons and movement were always the best parts of that series, unlike floaty UT and it's underwhelmi... : ieGod
              • Indeed. The balanced weapons in Quake 3 are the standard for which all competetive fps are measured. : Pneum0
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        perfect video : head crab
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          I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I love that shit (hell I still play Quakelive on an almost daily basi... : InfoBiter
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            Pubstars? Cooller is in that video along with other Q3 pro's. : Godhatesfatpeople
            • there was barely any pro footage in that at all : synapse19
        • http://www.own3d.tv/video/10357/mercurial : synapse19
  • Trespasser : Sailor of Fortune
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    System Shock 1 Vigilance You know, pretty much stuff that either came out before modern control conve... : roushimsx
    • precisely, thanks :) : shirif
  • WWII Online : c0bra
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    Hardcore sims like OpFlash/ARMA are goddamn impenetrable to the average person. : rudds
    • What I love about OpFlash is that the on-foot stuff is pretty detailed and simish, but the instant you ho... : roushimsx
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  ARMA2? : crummynz
  • This. It's very fun but you've got an uphill battle getting a grip on everything. : grover69
  • ^^ people hate it when they actually build them (I loved OFP and ARMA was a bit of a misfire, waiting on ... : 60days
  • I love Spec Ops in Arma 2. : Derringer
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  The gaming industry went pop music, and when their careers are over and it's time for retirement, all the... : Marrbe
  • L O fuckin' L : dopefish
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    compare bioshock to quake 2 and your argument falls apart. : Klebold
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      i.e. quake is the old franchise which keeps getting remade, despite being pretty shitty and increasingly ... : Klebold
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        I'd rather bring up SS2, DX and Thief. : Marrbe
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          true that bro...oh wait those all either got or is getting a sequel or spiritual successor : spiderfill
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            my point exactly! : Klebold
            • if only the sequels and spiritual successors weren't dumb bimbos compared to the originals, this point of... : SpaecKow
      • I doubt marrbe likes bioshock very much, considering it skewers his whole worldview. : chrisschutz
    • Bioshock blows, they didn't even get the mouse look right. Give me a break. : Pneum0
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    The people who sign the checks don't give a shit about creating art. : rudds
    • i cant wait until billionaire kids start commissioning video games : spiderfill
    • Not uniformly true. But being that they have to be concerned with having the money to actually back those : Ebu
• I found the learning curve in the Quake games to be very steep. But I was just getting into PC FPS gaming... : code-e255
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  Commercial viability of niche products is primarily a function of the cost of creation. (Or tolerance for... : mockery
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    Or hardcore gamers become willing to pay for their games the way Ferrari drivers pay for their cars. : Marrbe
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      I would pay maybe 800 dollars for a TIE Fighter remake. Does that count? : chrisschutz
      • If you can get a couple of tens of thousand of players to do the same, regularly, sure. Or if you'd buy i... : Marrbe
• I hope so; it would be very nice =D With that said, even if it does happen it most certainly won't be ... : InfoBiter
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  It''s nice to see FPS move back towards "bullets go where I point" gunplay like back in the RTCW days. Th... : Cliffzorz
  • I remember when CS was more like that before beta 5 I think. COD4 pretty much copied counter-strike but u... : Shai-Tan
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  You mean you don't like all the flashing text on your screen and giant arrows telling you to "go here!"? ... : Godhatesfatpeople
  • PRESS A TO START 3-SECOND ANIMATION : Matt Burris
  • pretty much hehe. : head crab
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  If CPL had been run by someone competent, sure. I think that was the last US oppurtunity. Even QL is bigg... : anhero
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    I agree with you there. : Godhatesfatpeople
    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv_kpRpwelw : anhero
• I remember in Quake 2, there were certain moves, jumps, and tricks of the trade to win consistently. The... : Matt Burris
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  Does S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and its sequels count? : Dave-A
  • They didn't really have that much of a learning curve, they just gave you the opportunity to fuck yoursel... : roushimsx
  • I died a lot in the STALKER games. They count. Not much else is that brutal these days TBH. : ihya
  • The only learning curve STALKER had was learning which guns never to use because they couldn't hit the br... : DerHuhnTeufel
  • I think of STALKER as an obstacle trying not to get fucked in the ass by the game. : melt_core
  • Yea, STALKER counts. : Milleh
• u should fight me in mw2 or bfbc2 : spiderfill
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  why the hell would you want a steep learning curve on a FPS? you point and you shoot. sure, there i... : X-GOUKI
  • It's sad that this could seem like a reasonable statement on shooters now. Modern military-FPS games have... : Felraiser
  • no more like point and curse because your gun broke or its wildly inaccurate or bullets are made of rubbe... : spiderfill
  • rpg stuff is one kind of learning curve, but twitchy FPS games had a totally different kind of curve to t... : Veegeezee
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    he said SS2 didn't count : RikiTiki2
    • boh, it was shirif that said that : RikiTiki2
• Hop onto a cod or halo match against seasoned players : EvilDolemite
• Dust 514.. maybe. It is CCP after all. : JuffoWup
• I think you're mistaking learning curve for skill and complexity of gaming. Take fighters for example. ... : barcibus
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  When did FPS games ever have a learning curve? : freakynipples69
  • They never did. This post is weird. : the city
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  The casual always the whole thing. :( : dfay
  • you forgot your verb : RikiTiki2
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  this is why you need to play CS:s or some other top notch multiplayer fps (not cod crap..) and force your... : wimpy1
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    are you saying there can't be better people than you at "cod crap?" : RikiTiki2
    • no, but the learning curve tends to lose its curve a year from release when no one plays it anymore. if... : wimpy1
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    Is that what he's talking about? Just adversarial gameplay? I think that has as much to do with how many ... : Fred Garvin
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      i guess hes not clear about what hes looking for.. personally, I cant wait for Portal 2 because I see ... : wimpy1
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        Learning how Portal worked wasn't that hard and I can see the sequel being the same. Easy to learn, hard ... : Fred Garvin
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          thats at least my understanding of learning curve.. the first time I played doom i didnt know what i was ... : wimpy1
          • Right and that's my point. Anyone that cut their teeth on old school FPS games isn't going to have a mass... : Fred Garvin
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  Where exactly would the large learning curve be? A radical new control system that will most likely fail ... : Fred Garvin
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    For now, the developers can only seem to come up with turning the game into an MMORPG, which in my opinio... : the archvile
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      So, how do you add more depth? We've already added story, classes, unlocks, co-op, a myriad of game types... : Fred Garvin
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        better AI. its hard to do, but is the best way to make an fps more enjoyable. : wimpy1
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          AI is an industry wide problem, not limited to shooters. Even then, I prefer a combination of well script... : Fred Garvin
          • while thats true, an action/adventure type game can make up for poor AI with other challenges, things lik... : wimpy1
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            Agreed, AI has to be the weakest component of almost all games that come out. It's something that's real... : the archvile
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              or they just let the AI cheat and have wallhacks and all that crap :( : wimpy1
              • That falls under the "not modeled well" category, where the programmers didn't model human behavior and l... : the archvile
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        I don't know; maybe some concept that hasn't been tried before, or hasn't been really prominent. Either ... : the archvile
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          isnt the alternative a skill based game though? I often play CS:s on servers that give max money every ro... : wimpy1
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            By going onto the CS:S servers that give max money, you're altering the rules of the game so you can sele... : the archvile
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              ...which, in a way, is kinda fun, and most CS:S matches without players focused on the objectives devolve... : the archvile
              • yea, honestly theres 2 servers i play on.. both have a pretty good group of regulars.. one has max mone... : wimpy1
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    A complex game where you are using two mice as input, each controlling an arm. Foot pedals also to contr... : Goto10
    • QWOP Extreme? : the archvile
    • Sounds like Robot Alchemic Drive. : mindmann
• preamble: probably not. but overall, how do you mean? in-game complexity like weapon repairs and upg : Downforce
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  I think the last one that really tried for some depth was ET:Quake Wars -- and look how well that sold. S... : pixelat3d
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    ET:QW had the unfortunate release date of Holiday 2007, where it was jumbled together with CoD4, Crysis, ... : the archvile
    • Also TF2. That was a tough time to release a complex shooter. : Mansmells
    • I don't know. The latest Brink gameplay videos I saw makes it look incredibly boring. : Godhatesfatpeople
  • Exactly this, 40% whined that it wasn't an engine/gfx update to W:ET another 40% didn't like that it trie... : CurbDog
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  Go play Quake live for that - www.quakelive.com As for the above noobs talking about CS:S.... that gam... : hobohun7er
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    I want to see OSP and RA come back. I've always wanted CRT to do a proper RA mod using something like TF2... : Godhatesfatpeople
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      TF2 already has a RA mod, it's called arena and it sucks. : alias
      • Arena is fine. But I want to see a basic setup like RA. With the same weapon and map vote system. Perks a... : Godhatesfatpeople
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  Play in competitive leagues for whatever game you want to play. There is your learning curve. : alias
  • you mean low grav instagib ffa isn't the top of the food chain?! : synapse19
• I want an FPS with the learning curve of EVE Online. : Volatus32x
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  I'd like an FPS made for thinking adults. Thank you very much. : vx2o
  • Like what, a turn based FPS? : alias
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    are there anythinking adults here who could help? nope i dont see any around here : spiderfill
    • There's always at least 2.5, say the statistics. : vx2o
  • Research and Development mod for HL2 might fit the bill. : u sir name
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    every single time I see a game touted as this, it has RPG elements. Why is "add RPG elements" always the... : the archvile
    • You also find out that these "RPG elements" are just weak installations of item customization and very wa... : Godhatesfatpeople
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      Because Adults are considered to have shitty reaction time, aim, and ability to actually play games in re... : InfoBiter
      • (original rainbow six) : synapse19
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  Can you elaborate on this? What would the "large learning curve" consist of? : Porkasaurus
  • It doesn't even make sense. : Chod
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    MP games. Quake, UT, CS.... : head crab
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      None of those have a steep learning curve. They are all easy to learn, hard to master games. : Chod
      • I was thinking the same thing...I'm not sure he used the term correctly. You could argue CS has a ste... : Porkasaurus
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      I still don't understand what you are trying to get at. Explain the specific elements you want to see. B... : Porkasaurus
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        I think he's referring to the more pronounced difference between 'learning the game' and being good at th... : InfoBiter
        • Ah ok, I think you did a better job at guessing what he meant than I did. See that is an interesting t... : Porkasaurus
  • ^^^^^^^^^^ has never played starseige tribes : HisKillSkill
  • Have you ever played WQOP? Think that but in 3d. : CrustaR
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  I've been playing Modern Warfare 2 online. I like it a lot now that I'm on my twenties (rank). When I s... : doomed
  • To each their own =D I appreciate what your saying and respect it ... but I for one am as far on the o... : InfoBiter
• I think you're confusing a steep learning curve with a game that has enough depth and reliance on persona... : DinK
• Quite honestly, I'd like to see less FPS-style games. The market has moved too far in that direction, IM... : genom