Morning Discussion

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  So is this going to allow Apple to go after Microsoft for building that touch table thing? : MagicWishMonkey
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    That's what I'm wondering... but I think their first target is going to be the Palm Pre. : mwasher
    • yeah palm is fucked, but I wonder if sprint is going to get involved in defending palm. : stgdz
  • id love to see that happen haha : Jackass1233
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    if anything just require a fee. Surface tech as far as I know is not being sold anywhere right now. Howev... : two50six
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      Surface tables are out and you can get them from MS. We have one on order. : pancake humper
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        ah. I dont work on that team so I've no clue. : two50six
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          Ours has been on order for awhile now :( not sure WTF is going in with it. I wish I was more directly inv... : pancake humper
          • I played with one at the AETC Symposium in San Antonio a couple of weeks ago. It was cool. : capt tripps
  • Doubt it, the surface isnt a screen, its a surface that the image is projected onto and I think it uses c... : Beady
• the apple peripheral monopoly has only begun to take shape : Downforce
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  They filed it less than a year ago and plenty of other companies have demonstrated multi-touch before the... : omnova
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    This is a good question. Doesn't 'prior art' apply here? Or do companies have to challenge this patent? : Ariakus
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      This question does not make much sense. It is a patent now, there is a presumption that it is valid, but... : Jimb0v2
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        Shouldn't patent office prevent the grant of such patent if prior art exists? Isn't that their job? : Ariakus
        • In some form yes, but in reality they are woefully understaffed and overworked. Nor do they often have e... : boofy
  • This application claims priority going back farther than 1 year ago. : Jimb0v2
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  How can you claim rights to "touching a screen with more than one finger" lol :( : virus
  • they just did. : two50six
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    I'm sure they'll be quite touchy about it. : capt tripps
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      The downfall of the digitals age : azenmaster
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        Microsoft forced me to touch them inappropriately :( : capt tripps
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          I'm getting the impression that this be bad for a lot of companies. : stelth
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            I think microsoft has enough lawyers and enough interest in the matter for the situation to work itself o... : capt tripps
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              I dont get it : azenmaster
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                Microsoft hired the guy that did all the cool multitouch stuff and even sells multi-touch tables. One ta... : capt tripps
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                  where is the pun though? I thought that this was the pun subthread : azenmaster
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                    Stelth what the FUCK. : heartsauce
                    • what? : azenmaster
        • I would flip them a finger. >:( : Maddog_Delphi97
  • *HATE* : trevis
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    its actually "detecting one or more finger contacts with the touch screen display" so even one finger is ... : boring gegtik
    • What the fuck would you do with a 'touch screen display' besides detect 'one or more finger contacts'. : capt tripps
  • Sigh. People do not understand patent law. While I have not reviewed this in detail, it wouldn't suprri... : Jimb0v2
• haha did that article just refer to Apple as a 'fruity toymaker'? fucking inquirer : mikecyb
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  Why are patents like this allowed :( Only the exact implementation should be patentable, not the concept... : Richese
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    You can't rely on these general summaries. If only the exact implementation was patentable the patent ... : Jimb0v2
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      It wouldn't be worthless because whatever clever means you've come up with for solving the problem you've... : Richese
      • I don't think you have thought this through. Who determines what is a generic idea? Why shouldn't a gen... : Jimb0v2
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  I doubt this patent would hold up for long if they ever tries to defend it. : uncleanmonkey
  • I hope Palm and MS go after them immediately. : Richese
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  That's going to hold up for all of about .02 seconds in a court. How long have touchscreens been around ... : itsjames
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    It's not touch screens, it's multi-touch capable screens. : ieGod
    • It's deriviative and clearly follows from the problem - not patentable. The patent office is a joke. How ... : uncleanmonkey
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      haven't multi-touch laptop mouse touchpads had this for ages too though? I'm not sure how you would diff... : itsjames
      • I'm not saying it's legitimate, I'm just pointing out the difference. I think apple was one of the first ... : ieGod
    • It fails the "obviousness" test. Hmm, we have multitouch pads. And we have touchscreens. I wonder what... : Arcanum
  • Uh, they did not get a patent on a touch screen. : Jimb0v2
• They really need to touch with two fingers, hold both of them down, and expand to see the bigger picture ... : spiderfill
• http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.h... : mojorisen1117
• Just wait til Minority Report sues them! : DapperDan
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  I don't understand this. According to the Internets, the first multitouch display was created in 1982 by... : Richese
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    but was it patented? : two50six
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      Does that matter? I thought that prior art trumps any patent. : Richese
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        huh? no I dont believe so. Then again Im not a patent lawyer. But just because you create something doesn... : two50six
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          Prior art (also known as state of the art, which also has other meanings), in most systems of patent law, : AgentPothead
          • ah interesting. Well did I mention I wasnt a patent lawyer? ;) Dont know much about the specifics for pat... : two50six
        • It doesn't mean you automatically get the patent, just that nobody else can patent it. : uncleanmonkey
        • We're still on a first-to-invent system, but there's been a big push lately to go first-to-file, which IM... : Perturbation
• That is patently ridiculous! : Bruzilla
• WTFPATENTOFFICE? I seem to remember academic examples years before we heard about the Touch. : Fred Garvin
• What would Steve Jobs corpse do? : Godhatesfatpeople
• LOL. I can't wait for the Palm/Apple fight. They'll prior art their way back to the Newton and before. : Fyunch Click
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  All computer programming is math. It blows my mind people think you can patent math. : AgentPothead
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    Math is not allowed to be patented. : Jimb0v2
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      Then explain software patents to me please :) : AgentPothead
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        software patents are very generalized and almost never refer to a specific algorithm. it's always just s... : mikecyb
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          Isn't generalized exactly what a patent is NOT supposed to be? : AgentPothead
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            they're specific enough that it's obviously a single thing but not specific enough that it's super easy t : mikecyb
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              Eh, people in this thread have not read the claims. It could turn out that its that simple, but I highly... : Jimb0v2
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                Give me $500 an hour and I'll do it for you. : ra1n
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                  I take it your a patent attorney too? : Jimb0v2
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                    I actually am a patent attorney, yes. Are you? : ra1n
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                      Yes sir. : Jimb0v2
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                        Oh, cool beans. What area of the country are you in? I'm the North East. I'm currently working on an a... : ra1n
                        • Midwest. I'm in the middle of converting a provisional appliation,... I am going to get back to work so ... : Jimb0v2
        • If we accept this as true (which I'm not sure I would) . I still think the problem everyone has is that ... : Jimb0v2
        • The LZW patent would like to have a word with you. Well it would, if it wasn't expired : GloriousCow
        • one click was struck down iirc : retarded talking dinosaur
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        The law as it stands is pretty confusing. But the gist of it is that subject matter is eligible for pate... : Jimb0v2
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          At it's most basic level computer programming is nothing more than math. Why is 2+2=4 not patentable, but... : AgentPothead
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            There are two seperate issues here: Is it patentable subject matter? Is it novel and nonobvious (ie i... : Jimb0v2
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              That's the thing, so many computer patents deal with discoveries, not inventions. In fact you could ma... : uncleanmonkey
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                Like what? The one-click patent is not a discovery. It is an invention. Granted, many people (perhap... : Jimb0v2
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                  I gave an example before: Marching cubes. I had to sit on my hands for two months waiting for the patent ... : uncleanmonkey
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                    There is no disagreement from me that some patents get allowed that shouldn't. I just don't think the ... : Jimb0v2
                    • I didn't say so, but IMO software patents fall in three categories 1) Obvious patents that clearly fol... : uncleanmonkey
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              ^^^inf this. This is the correct answer, not the speculation or argument of people saying what the law *... : ra1n
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                Dude, the discussion is ABOUT what people think the law SHOULD be, not what it is. If you're arguing abou... : uncleanmonkey
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                  I was directly asked what the law was, so was Jimb0v2. He explained it pretty clearly. : ra1n
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                    By explain software patents I meant why can you not patent math and yes patent math. : AgentPothead
                    • "and yeT patent math." spallchuk, wut. : AgentPothead
                    • And the answer is, you cannot patent a mathematical principle. In many circumstances, you can patent a d... : ra1n
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            Go learn the law. There is actually a reason. : ra1n
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              You are the patent attorney, I was asking you to explain it not simply cop out with, oh go learn it yours... : AgentPothead
              • You can read the MPEP. : ra1n
        • #2898

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          By: uncleanmonkey x Show Full Post

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          A software algorithm isn't tied to a particular machine or apparatus, neither is hardware. I don't think mathematical formulas/algorithms should be patentable if they're implemented in hardware either. It's not the tangentability of it, it's that it's inherent knowledge that comes from the system by exploring it - it's a discovery, not an invention.

          Jan 27, 2009 12:42pm PST
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          A software algorithm isn't tied to a particular machine or apparatus, neither is hardware. I don't think ... : uncleanmonkey
          • Plus, consider the whole purpose of patents. I'm pretty sure it wasn't intended to stifle innovation - qu... : uncleanmonkey
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            Hardware is not tied to a particular machine? Boggle!!! I don't think there is any disagreement on the... : Jimb0v2
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              What exactly did apple patent if they didn't patent "a mathematical algorithm in software or hardware"? T... : AgentPothead
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                a process? : Jimb0v2
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                  So they patented an algorithm? In mathematics, computing, linguistics and related subjects, an algorithm : AgentPothead
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                    Process patents have been around forever. There is a difference in the law between a process and a mathe... : Jimb0v2
                    • Is there some legal patentspeak defintion of a "process" that doesn't mean "a sequence of finite instruct... : AgentPothead
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              Hardware implementations of algorithms aren't tied to a specific machine, as they can be replicated as pa... : uncleanmonkey
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                You lost me. The way I see it, if you come up with a process for doing something, it should be patenta... : Jimb0v2
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                  What if that process is "a method for reasoning about uncertainty"? Now you've just patented probability ... : uncleanmonkey
                  • It would be a good topic for a paper. The difference between a process and a mathematical algorithm. As... : Jimb0v2
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                    99% of the time, stuff like that gets lumped into a larger overall invention that does something with the... : ra1n
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                      Doesn't matter if you're still not allowed to use the discovered mathematical properties that were patent... : uncleanmonkey
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                        What do you mean? : ra1n
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                          I mean that if you build a machine that's based entirely on mathematical property X, and others are preve... : uncleanmonkey
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                            The idea is that you can't patent a device that precludes the use of the underlying scientific principal ... : ra1n
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                              Yes, I gave one ealier: Marching cubes. It really just patents the geometrical properties of a cube inte... : uncleanmonkey
                              • What's the patent number on this, I want to check that out. : ra1n
    • That was his point. : uncleanmonkey
    • that's why Einstein got away with it. : sharpie
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    All mechanical devices are just physics. : SenorSpine
    • Damn, you stole my response. : ra1n
    • http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=19051899#itemanchor_19051899 : Richese
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      If the patent office had a rule of not patenting physics that might matter :) : AgentPothead
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        Uh, they do. : ra1n
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          Did they ever revoke that patent for swinging on a swing? : AgentPothead
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            You can't patent laws of nature. Physics is a law of nature. Make sense? : ra1n
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              But you just said all mechanical devices are physics, and you can't patent physics, and yet all mechanica... : AgentPothead
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                That was a joke making fun of your software is math line. : ra1n
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                  Hmm, what do you think computer software is if it isn't math? : AgentPothead
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                    Oh jesus christ. Pure mathematics is not computer science. I would argue that computer science is a way... : ra1n
                    • I agree with you they are exceptionally highly related. Hell, I have degrees in both. : ra1n
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                      That's great man, but if computer software isn't math what is it. You can't say something isn't something... : AgentPothead
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                        Do you even fucking read these posts? I said "I would argue that computer science is a way of implementi... : ra1n
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                          Well you guys made a joke after I said that software was math, implying that it isn't math, I was just wo... : AgentPothead
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                            software::math mechanical devices::physics : Jimb0v2
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                              Software IS math though, and if you don't think so I have to ask have you ever programmed anything more t... : AgentPothead
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                                I have a degree in computer science. : Jimb0v2
                                • So explain to me what a computer is doing when it runs software besides doing math. : AgentPothead
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                              Invalid analogy. More like physical reactions::physics. Can you patent that water boils when it's heated... : uncleanmonkey
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                                You can patent the processes required to lead to the boiling of water. Just as you can patent a collectio... : ieGod
                                • ^^ agree. Again, you cannot confuse patentability with patentable subject matter. The process that ... : Jimb0v2
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                                No, but I could patent some device that made water boil exceptionally fast, just like I can patent a soft... : ra1n
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                                  But the problem is that you can ALSO patent a mathematical property of geometry, so long as you claim it'... : uncleanmonkey
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                                    If you want to break down any device imaginable (based on physical mathematical models) you're going back... : ieGod
                                    • I think there is a difference though. In one case you're looking at a mathetmatical model and patenting t... : uncleanmonkey
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                                    Alright: "While a scientific truth, or the mathematical expression of it, is not patentable inventio... : ra1n
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                                      I know that the law allows this kind of bullshit, I'm just saying it's wrong on a moral level because in ... : uncleanmonkey
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                                        Sign, it's not. But if it makes you feel better to just say that over and over, go for it. Give me an e... : ra1n
                                        • I've given several examples in this thread already. : uncleanmonkey
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                                          He's given a bunch of examples but you'd rather reply to AgentPothead than uncleanmonkey :( : Richese
                                          • I need patent numbers or names, though. If you claim that pure scientific princples have been patented, ... : ra1n
                                  • You would make a great examiner. =) (I am not saying you are right or wrong) : Jimb0v2
                        • Computer science really is just a branch of mathetmatics though. Mostly logic. See lambda calculus. : uncleanmonkey
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                      Pure mathematics isn't computer science like a rectangle isn't a square. A square is still a rectangle th... : AgentPothead
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                        No pure mathematics isn't software like the English language isn't a poem. : SenorSpine
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                          But software is pure mathematics and a poem is the english language. : AgentPothead
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                            And you can copyright a poem and patent software : SenorSpine
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                              DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER. This is why I think software at most should be copyrightable :) : AgentPothead
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                                You can get a design patent on a cotton gin. Therefore it should not be patentable. I grant you that ... : Jimb0v2
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                                  Man, you can stay so much more calm. All I can think is idiot RAGE RAGE RAGE. : ra1n
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                                    Says the man who doesn't think computer software is math. : AgentPothead
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                                      That's like calling engineering math. They're based on mathematical principles but there's more to it tha : ieGod
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                                        Your computer is nothing but an adding machine. All it is doing is mathematical formula at very very high... : AgentPothead
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                                          You're missing the point. Software isn't math for the sake of math. It's an application of math for a par... : ieGod
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                                            He made up his mind and no amount of logic is going to sway him. He's shitting up this thread with stupi... : ra1n
                                            • Sorry but I'm not the one advocating software patents so I'm not sure how you can call me stupid. : AgentPothead
                                        • A chair is just metal, wood, and fabric. An ipod is just silicon, copper, plastic, glass, and non-conduc : walker270
                                      • Computer science IS just maths though. If you want to patent all the "fluff" around writing software (lik... : uncleanmonkey
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                                      Never change, please. : ra1n
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                                        For you ra1n I won't, I promise. And guys don't take it so seriously, I know I say a lot of retarded shit... : AgentPothead
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                                          It just makes me upset when I feel like I've wasted my time trying to explain something and it's wasted. : ra1n
                                          • We're on shacknews. Doesn't the very fact of being here signify our time is being wasted? :) : AgentPothead
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                                          The problem is you're not playing devil's advocate -- you're playing stupid. Playing devil's advocat... : walker270
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                                            I'm repeating the "same old line" that software is math, because it IS. I haven't seen a single person pr... : AgentPothead
                                            • Software is an application of math -- just like any disciplines relating to physics or non-biology based ... : walker270
                                          • Thank you, that was well-said. : ra1n
                              • You have no idea what you are talking about. Software and copyright are completely different. Copyright... : ra1n
                            • Can you patent, say, Hexameter? : uncleanmonkey
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                          Computer science is clearly a branch of mathematics. It all follows from Church's and others (mathematica... : uncleanmonkey
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                            distilled down into vbscript for code monkeys. : Antilles_Prime
                            • Well, sort of like how mathematics is distilled down to various tricks for everyday calculations. Algorit... : uncleanmonkey
                  • It's a seperate discipline completely. Is physics math just because there's math involved? : derelict515
                • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus Here's the first few words: "In mathematical logic and co... : uncleanmonkey
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      There's a pretty big difference though. Patenting the properties of cubes being intercepted by a surface ... : uncleanmonkey
      • To clarify: Try patenting maxwell's laws, for example. That would be a valid comparison. The argument aga... : uncleanmonkey
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    Also, all electronic devices are just examples a natural phenomenon. : ra1n
    • Not a good comparison : Richese
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      This was the debate when Morse tried to patent the telegraph. They ultimately decided a specific embodim... : ra1n
      • So, it's actually the precedent example, not just a good comparison. : ra1n
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  i remember nintendo trying to patent the same thing 2 years ago http://www.gamespot.com/news/6144971.... : dantastic
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    that's an entirely different patent :( : mikecyb
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      no, not really. : bagelcc
      • fine I read more than the first paragraph of the article >:( : mikecyb
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    Nintendo DID patent the D-Pad though : two50six
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      Which is why everyone else's D-Pad has sucked to this day. : lolpatrol
      • not anymore ! i think that patent just expired :D : qwpeoriu
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        The Playstation dpad is better, I think. : ieGod
        • crazy talk, the ps d-pad gets really uncomfortable for me if i'm using it for extended periods of time. m... : qwpeoriu
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          technically not a dpad though : two50six
          • True, but very effective. I didn't even realize it wasn't a single contiguous piece until someone mention... : ieGod
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          nothing to see here. this dude is a career PS-Troll : dantastic
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            Says the biased 360 owner with no sense. : ieGod
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              Said the spider to the fly : two50six
              • Except I have a 360 and enjoy it greatly, along with a Wii :( : ieGod
        • Actually it is pretty good. It's really just a + shaped D pad with some plastic covering up the center of... : Dynotaku
• Of course they did. They're players in a game. The game's rules are fucked, but of course the players s... : vigilante
• Considering how questionable business method and other non-physical patents are now legally, I doubt much... : Conan
• Man, that's bullshit. : chazums
• Should have just given them the patent for pinstripes : d fluke