LithTech 2 Shots

Agreed, at the same time, I see alot of people using this argument against LithTech, however nonsensical it may be.

Foozmelon, it\'s not an argument, it\'s an opinion.

Are you saying everyone has to like Jason Hall?

We\'re just saying, at least I am, I hope lithtech is good, but I neither trust nor like Jason Hall based on past behavior.

\"I just don\'t like Hall\'s attitude personally.\"

Sorry, this argument does not hold water. Developers do not buy engines based on whether they \'like\' someone or not. Read post #49, what he did was nothing compared to the shots Sweeney has taken.

Look at is this way - its in our best interests for Lithtech to be good, because Lithtech being good means we get more good games.

What we have here is two different engines with certain points you can make about either:

Lithtech2 looks good, but is untested and its predecessor was unimpressive.

Epics UT engine looks pretty good, is versatile and for its age does well to stand up to todays newer engines, but is CRIPPLED with a very bad D3D/OpenGL problem.

I\'d be happy for Lithtech2 to blow UT out of the water - a good engine with out a 3dfx/Glide bias? Just what we need.


I just don\'t like Hall\'s attitude personally. He did start sniping at Epic, with all his veiled references to them .

$509 U.S. greenbacks for (1) 800mhz Athlon.
That is insane! Bring on the Thunderbird.

#51, I only meant that I can see wanting to defend your own technology against apparent vaporware. That\'s ridiculous, to some extent, given the screenshots, and Sweeney\'s percieved importance of Mike Dussault is a sign of his own insecurity, but I see why he would say some of that. Not that it\'s really defensible, but I can see where it comes from.

LithTech is here to stay, I agree. There is SOMETHING there. I just don\'t know that it will be the dominant engine in the future. Sweeney did make some good points about revenues from game sales versus revenues from engine licenses.

Ah well, it is too late, I must go to bed, nice .... arguing<?> with you..

: )

\"I disagree with Tim Sweeney\'s reaction, but I can see where it comes from.\"

I don\'t see it. There is no excuses for that. It\'s called \'afraid of a major threat\'. Mark my words, LithTech is here to stay, I expect other developers to move LithTech\'s way. We shall see.

Good discussion.

#49

Two wrongs do not make a right. I did not say Jason Hall was any more or less evil than Tim Sweeney. I have some modicum of respect for Tim Sweeney since he wrote the Unreal Engine, however that has been reduced somewhat on finding out that he didn\'t write the software rasterizer (the most impressive part).

I disagree with Tim Sweeney\'s reaction, but I can see where it comes from. Jason Hall started this war with Lithtech 1.0, the original release, when he claimed all sorts of amazing things for the LithTech engine, and ridiculed epic to some extent. Tim Sweeney kept his mouth shut and coded, fixed the net code, released UT, and then took several potshots at Jason Hall that were totally uncalled for. Especially the personal Attacks. I am not here to defend Tim Sweeney, I just don\'t think it\'s cool for Jason Hall to walk around like an innocent schoolgirl when he is guilty of many of the same things Sweeney is.

This has become an ugly, public flamewar, and I am actually glad that Jason Hall made a few attempts to put a stop to it. It is a rivalry. Notice the one who has the best technology (Carmack) is silent. Of course I\'ve heard it\'s very difficult to extend Carmack\'s engines, so it could be because of that.

\"I bear some Ill will towards Jason Hall because he has made outrageous claims and fairly insidious digs at epic and Id in the past, and to now act like a saint, well, I find that reprehsible.\"

More reprehensible than Tim Sweeney soliciting LT licensees in Monolith\'s own LithTech Dev. chat room?
More reprehensible than Tim Sweeney\'s informative post on unreal.epicgames.com completely decimating LithTech and Monolith using Andrew Smith\'s horrific piece of hatred BOAM journalism?

#44 I\'m saying I\'ll believe it when I see it, and so far, I haven\'t seen it.

Ozymandias was the last releasable from Monolith (not even a game), and I didn\'t see it there. When I have an .exe with data files on my computer and I execute the .exe and it looks like the screenshots and runs at a decent framerate, I\'ll come back to the shack and rave about what an awesome engine Lithtech, Inc. has put together, but not until I see it.

Fooz, please read all of my post before responding, I know it\'s not the same engine as Shogo, but it is the same codebase, the LithTech engine, whatever version, is the Lithtech engine. I\'d be lying if I said the screenshots didn\'t impress me, but I have yet to see anything concrete from them except for the worthless ozymandias demo since Shogo.

And I suppose I should have been more clear. Shogo has been in my desk since 2 days after I bought it, it was the buggiest, ugliest, crappiest level, horrible net code first person shooter I ever bought (not that I ever played, mind you, there are far worse), I didn\'t even bother with Blood2, but I am fairly certain that it was worse.

As I said, I hope the LithTech engine does deliver, someone needs to knock Carmack down a peg so he\'ll make another mind blowing engine (sorry guys, Quake3 just didn\'t do it for me), I will believe it exactly when I see it, and I will reserve judgement until then, where have I said that the lithtech 2 engine was bad? All I said was that it didn\'t have terrain any more than the unreal engine and I will hold to that until I see a game.

Of course the game matters, the game shows off the engine. I personally found Unreal to be a fairly poor game (yes, even the single player), but the way the engine was used showed it off to full advantage, everything looked so cool, it was worth playing, the lighting effects, the badass sky... it looked so cool. Even if the original lithtech engine was as good as unreal or better, I\'d never know it from the games I saw, they looked poor, and graphics are all I have to judge a 3d engine by, graphics and speed.

I bear some Ill will towards Jason Hall because he has made outrageous claims and fairly insidious digs at epic and Id in the past, and to now act like a saint, well, I find that reprehsible. But I don\'t want his company to fail, and I do want to see a new LithTech game using the new technology. But.. as I said.. I\'m not counting the days.

I am certainly no epic \"fanboy\", as I am fairly dissapointed with the unreal engine (I upgraded my voodoo2 to a TNT2, and for Unreal it was a downgrade), and I am having trouble playing UT due to that very fact. Quake 3 is currently the creme de la creme in 3d engines, it is fast and looks amazing. If Monolith or any other licensee uses the lithtech engine to it\'s full advantage and shows me something I can get my hands on and play with, I\'ll be happy to see it. I want great games as much as anyone. I just don\'t trust Jason Hall all that far.

#41 \'don\'t be a fool again?\'
w00 Embrace!!

Bake me a Halo! And while your at it, TF2 and Diablo2 please.

omg Freshview is the mistake of buying Shogo (which i thought was rather poor) blinding you that much?

Just look at the screenshots. Have you seen the same image quality in Shogo or any LithTech1 (I repeat, 1, since you seem to have a problem telling the difference between differently numbered engines) game? If you still insist that these are from the same EXACT engine (upgrades don\'t count to you i guess), then i\'m sorry i took part in this debate.

The image quality of a graphics engine does not instantly make a good game. But you are seriously deluding yourself if you\'re saying that this engine is not a drastic improvement from what LithTech1 (again... 1) was.

AND i fucked up the italics....

/me goes back to sleep

Of course you all know i was referring to Duke Wanked post at #31 when I said \"Hey #30\" in my post....

true dat

Hey #30, are you telling me that Shogo and Blood 2 werent bug infested, incomplete pieces of poo? :) Damn! Lithtech1 had SO much going for it! Let\'s hope Lith2 will be better represented.

Mr_Psy
i\"just a bunch of hooligans\"]i

By: FreshView [Mar 10th 2000, 01:33 am]
\"Fooz, I was talking about Lithtech2.

I have shogo in a shelf near my desk. I have Unreal Tournament in my CD Rom.. \'nuff said.\"

Truly pathetic.. What kind of comparison is that?
Hey Fresh, look at how old Shogo is compared to UT. Do you still play Unreal 1? Do you still play Quake 2? in SINGLE PLAYER? Don\'t criticise Shogo\'s review records... It got at least 80% + in all major mags.

\"BTW: Lithtech 2 engine = lithtech engine\"
Please tell me you really don\'t believe that the LT2.0 is the same one that did Shogo. It\'s also public knowledge that the first LT2 game will be No One Lives Forever, which looks kick-ass.

Also, it\'s been said before, it\'ll be said again. The quality in the game vs. the engine are two different things. Argue with this logic and you are instantly saying that every engine sucks. All engines have their \'black sheep\'. It is the developers who determine their engine choice based on first hand knowledge.. not other game sales. From all of the press releases put out, Irrational games, Black Isle, New World Computing, Magic Lantern (whom Epic lied about and said that Magic Lantern switched from LT to Unreal- they didn\'t, Forts uses the LT engine), Spec Ops guys etc recently, you start to wonder why these developers are using LT? It certainly isn\'t the price... (even Epic says that their price is similar to LT) I think it has something to do with the freedom of a little market competition and a better engine than Epic\'s...

#38, no, clearly not.

Go look at Jason Halls plan updates, he constantly refers to the engine as the Lithtech engine even though it has lithtech 2 features.

In fact, several developers are using what he called the \"lithtech 1.5\" engine.

do your homework next time.

BTW: Lithtech 2 engine = lithtech engine

Yes and you probably think that Quake3 engine = Quake2 engine.

BTW:

ALL OPINIONS ARE BIASED, THEY ARE ALL BASED ON THE SPEAKERS WORLDVIEW

don\'t run around accusing someone of having a fucking \"biased opinion\"

Fooz, I was talking about Lithtech2.

I have shogo in a shelf near my desk. I have Unreal Tournament in my CD Rom.. \'nuff said.

BTW: Lithtech 2 engine = lithtech engine.

It is a massively upgraded engine, read Jason Hall\'s earlier plan statements and his replies to Tim Sweeney. I hope Lithtech2 is a great, great engine, I hope they have badass games that blow my mind away, but I\'m not exactly counting the days, because these days I\'ve grown bitter and cynical towards game companies. I liked what Epic produced. Certain levels of unreal astonished me the same way Quake astonished me when i first saw it. I never had that with LithTech, all I got was Shogo (fucking bull), and Blood2 (\'nuff said).

I\'m not making any personal attacks here.

And the nay-sayers come in. Face it you guys, it\'s gonna be tough to play down Lithtech2.
Freshview, you need to read the posts better, the guy said:
\"Anyways point being like always, Lithtech2 has terrain.\"
He never said Lithtech 1, you tribal village whore (might as well add name-calling, to keep up with Shugashack standards).

Another argument:
\"The Lithtech1 games didn\'t exactly leave an incredible impression.\"
Funny, \'cause quite a few people consider Shogo to be one of the best single-player FPS games out. Also, all Unreal has speaking for it is Unreal and UT.. Wheel of Time \'never left an incredible impression\' neither did anything else.

BTW, I don\'t think the demo was actually a game. This is why they call it a \'tech demo\'.

Fooz

Lith 1 was certainly not as good as Unreal.

At least no implementation of LIth1 that I ever saw.

As far as Terrain, I\'ve never seen terrain from either company, so I can just call \'em as I see them.. or I could just take your word for it, but I don\'t think that\'s going to happen.

#30, what a load of bullshit...

I don\'t recall playing any lithtech game with terrain.

#30 - I think his point was that Kingpin did look great, but the game was pretty average.

Lithtech2 might look good, but I\'ll wait to see what some games actually do with it. The Lithtech1 games didn\'t exactly leave an incredible impression.

Kingpin looked good from screenshots too.

Personally, I\'ll wait and see if it actually runs worth a damn before saying it\'s the next best thing.

heh, i saw unreal at EB for 9 bucks, and q2 for 19. the weird part is Sin was 19 as well.

#21, Yeah. Especially when that army of 500 soldiers marches over the horizon towards your camp in that massively multiplayer game we all want. :) Level of detail should guarantee a minimum fps at the expense of quality though.

I got to admit, those screenies look pretty sweet.....
I just hope games using it will look and play well at susstained
frame rates.

Sheep, It\'s the other other white meat sick game.

http://www.3dgaming.net/stuff/quickie/3900.shtml

Shots look pretty impressive. Wish I could actually see the demo at GDC.