Microsoft to Open Up Xbox 360 Development

How deep can this thing go?
Any chance that we will see a port of XBMC? this is the only thing that holds me back from buying 360: It's _limited_ media capabilties

In what way is XNA Game Studio Express scaled down?

I want to know what I wont be able to do with express that I will with the full version.

this is not "open"

From the faq:

Q: What does XNA stand for?
A: XNA’s Not Acronymed

I chortled...

just to make sure i got this.

the express software is free for anyone to use on the pc. if you want to share what you have or do anything with the 360, you have to pay $99. the pro version of the software (price not announced) will allow you to distribute and make money from the games.

that it?

I wonder how long Sony will take to copy this and then claim MS always follows their lead?

Does anyone know if there's currently any plans for any process of going from massively popular XNA member only game to a full-blown Live Arcade game any old user can buy?

I think a lot more people would be interested in this if they knew that if their stuff was really good they could make some $ from it...

Hats off to the XNA and Garage Games guys. I'll be picking up a subscription as soon as it's available.

Can't wait. :)

I wonder if someone will make a XBMC type app using this stuff? I and a lot of other people mod-chipped Xboxes purely for XBMC, and $100 is in the same ballpark as the cost of a modchip (esp. if time/hassle is considered).

Some pics from the keynote this morning...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamerscore/sets/72157594236914561/

timaste, you one of those guys up there?

interesting (I thought) copypaste from the slashdot discussion:

From the XNA FAQ:

Q: How exactly can I share my 360 game to other 360 users? Will my game only be available to people with the XNA "Creators Club" subscription? Will it be available to all 360 users that have an Xbox Live account?
A: There is currently no supported way to share binaries on the Xbox 360. Currently, there are four requirements that must be met in order to share a game targeting Xbox 360 which is developed with XNA Game Studio Express.

1. The individual you are planning to share the game with must be logged in to Xbox Live and have an active subscription to the XNA Creators Club
2. The receiving user must have downloaded the XNA Framework runtime environment for the Xbox 360
3. The receiving user must have XNA Game Studio Express installed on their own development PC
4. The game project, including all source and content assets, must be shared with the receiving user. The receiving user then compiles and deploys the game to their Xbox 360.

"Though XNA Game Studio Express-created work will only be playable by those with the paid yearly membership..."

Bah. :|

So if I knew nothing about game creation, could I use this express edition to learn? I wonder how user friendly it is.

PR screenshots of games made with it
http://www.xboxyde.com/news_3296_en.html

Some stuff from the Torque engine (you too can make Too Human), Marble Blast, an Asteroids clone, an updated Spacewar, and the flower and mahjong games shown at GDC.

Hey guys, sorry all I have is this low-res video of some new TSE stuff that we are showing off. All this stuff will be avilable on Torque-XNA, it's both 3D Next-Gen and 2D (Next-Gen?) Anyhow, here's the low-res video.

http://www.garagegames2.com/web/tech_demos/legions/video/tse_gamefest_lowres.mov

And some Q&A on the main concerns from last night. About to head over to the keynote, wish me luck. :)

With everything we're announcing, we're likely to get some tough q's in the forums and blogs. Here's some we can expect almost for sure.

What is Torque X? What is XNA?
"Torque X" is what we've dubbed Torque on XNA. XNA is Microsoft's overall umbrella brand for game development technologies and tools. The XNA Framework is a C#-based, managed code game development-specific framework that provides low-level utilities, and wraps Direct X for managed code use. XNA Game Studio Express is Microsoft's IDE for XNA, its similar to Visual Studio, with game development-specific enhancements. Microsoft also just announced that with XNA Game Studio Express, you can play the XNA-based games you create on the Xbox 360 as well as Windows.

Please see the Torque X landing page for more information on Torque X (FYI GGers, the Torque X landing page will launch on the main GG site on Monday, and is available for you to view from the GG office before then at www.garagegames.com/products/torque/x).

What we've done is port key pieces of Torque over to C# in order to make it work with the XNA Framework. Microsoft's approach with XNA is really cool for game developers of all kinds. Besides being able to make games on consoles, it honestly turns out that doing games in managed code is a smart way to go. Torque X projects are performant already, and we're not even done with it yet.

Our goal is to have feature parity between Torque X and our existing engines TGB and TSE. We've already got a lot of their functionality up and running, and Torque X is even leading the way in some cases... we've been able to get nice implementations of some future TGB and TSE features, such as shaderized 2D scenes and polysoup collision detection in TSE, up and running in Torque X very quickly (thanks in part to the ease of working with managed code).

Why don't you just finish what you've already got started?
We are. We're shipping TSE Miletone 4 this week, and that includes a full static and dynamic lighting and shadowing system, as well as some awesome graphical special effects, performance improvements, and a lot more. TSE is making incredible progress, and is feature complete with Milestone 4! For the TSE release, all we have left to do is tune, polish, squash any remaining bugs, and write lots of good docs.

We just shipped TGB 1.1.1, which includes all kinds of fancy new features, including a whole new tile editor, and a bunch of usability improvements based on community feedback. TGB updates are continuing apace, and we'll have a new one every few weeks!

We're also working on a big update to TGE. Constructor is well into its Beta. And we even just entered Beta on a new game we've been doing internally. GG is getting stuff done faster than we ever have before, and Torque X is just an exciting new addition to our efforts!

Is managed code actually viable for game development? Everyone I know says its slow.
Managed code is usually slower than C++ code, yep. But C++ is slower than assembly, and people don't code in assembly very often any more. At some point, it becomes less important to squeeze every last drop of performance out of your game, than it does to just get your game done more quickly. That's why game developers originally switched from coding in low-level languages like Assembly almost exclusively, to higher-level native languages like C++. It's easier to code than Assembly.

The same is true for managed languages like C#. They remove a lot of the nitty-gritty, annoying, really hard to debug issues you can hit with closer to the metal languages like C++. Once you get used to it, managed languages make you a lot faster coder. They're kind of like scripting languages, which lots of game developers use, only Microsoft's .NET managed languages are especially fast.

We originally didn't think managed languages would work at all for game development. We're pretty hardcore C++ coders at GarageGames. But once we started using it, and after a lot of careful analysis and engineering work, we've been able to unlock really great performance in XNA with Torque X. The demos we have running on Torque X, such as our XNA-based Marble Blast Ultra clone, runs about 80% as fast the original C++ game! We see similar results with the 2D demos, even though with Torque X we've thrown shaders on them!

Especially for indie games, which are necessarily smaller-scoped than huge AAA commercial titles, managed game development can make a huge amount of sense. And using Torque X is going to be by far the fastest way to get XNA-based games done.

So, are you changing to managed code entirely? No more C++!?
No way. The Torque Game Engine suite of technology and tools is firmly rooted in C++, and we'll continue pushing forward on them... adding features, tuning, and more. Our efforts in managed code with Torque X are just a nice addition to the work we're already doing.

Should I just wait for Torque X to start my project then, if its so great?
If you want to make games... get started. Its almost never a good idea to wait around for some new piece of technology before you start your game development. Like it or not, making good quality games takes time... if you want to do your actual game production in managed code on Torque X, that' great! But there's no need to wait. You can start prototyping your game now, on Torque as it exists today, and then switch over to Torque X and the XNA platform once its ready.

In fact, there's some really good news here. We are striving to keep Torque X compatibilty with Torque as you know it in C++. So, for example, if you're doing a 2D game and you build a level with Torque Game Builder, you'll be able to essentially "export" it for use with Torque X. In fact, we already have this functionality up and running in proof of concept! We can create a level in TGB, save it out, and load it in Torque X! To be clear, there will be some porting work involved if you switch a project from Torque as it exists today, to Torque X. But we want you to be able to deploy your games on any platform,

In the end, should I use Torque or Torque X?
It really doesn't matter that much which you use-- they're both great technologies and can use nice tools. Torque and Torque X are going to be very similar. Torque X is written atop managed code, so for beginning to intermediate programmers especially, its going to be easier to use than C++-based stuff. Torque X leverages the XNA Framework to allow you to run your games on the Xbox 360 in your own home, so if you want to prove that your game can work on a console, Torque X will be the way to go. On the other hand, the standard Torque engines will provide more performance by some margin than Torque X, and allow you to deploy games on OS X and Linux on the desktop.

In the end, it just might make sense doing your game on both Torque and Torque X, especially as time progresses and we continue to ease the port work you need to do to move back and forth.

So, did GarageGames sell out to Microsoft!?
No. We just think what Microsoft is doing is really, really cool. When Microsoft told us about their plans with the XNA Framework, we were stoked immediately. Imagine it... a major console manufacturer opening up their console for the masses who want to build their own games and play them! That's awesome! We had to get onboard that train... as far as game technology goes, our mission is to provide the technology, tools, and community that enable anyone with the vision and drive to create their own games. Torque X is right in line with that mission, and we are absolutely blown away with the position Microsoft is taking with their XNA initiatives. Kudos to the Microsoft games group, their efforts with Xbox 360, Live Arcade, and XNA are truly impressive.

Okay, that's it!

XNA Team have posted an update to their blog, more about why they did this etc., including comment on the elephant in the room people have been talking about:

Because this is a blog and not the actual press announcement, I can talk about the big obvious hole in the plan. When we ship XNA Game Studio Express this fall, you will be able to share your final product with anyone on your windows machine that you want, but there is no support for sharing Xbox binaries other than sending your source around. We fully intend to fix this in the future, and if I have anything to do about it, it will be sooner than later.

http://blogs.msdn.com/xna/archive/2006/08/14/699637.aspx

someone please make a good arcanoid clone... or i will.

Wait. So will there be multiplayer games, etc that can be played? Or are you paying $100 a year to play a billion clones of tetris by yourself while sitting alone?

I wonder if this will give me remote access to the dashboard?

Oh this could be fun. And in a good way.

This is pretty awesome news. I'm kind of bummed about the $100/year though.

Any idea if one of the schools is DigiPen? I haven't heard anything about this there.

Im sure Im just retarded and missed this, but do end users have to subcribe too? Would I have to shell out $100 to play these, even though I would never use the actual dev stuff?

Although this sounds kind of exciting, just like Sony's Net Yaroze did back in the day, it's not the proper way, in my opinion.

To this day I wonder how the market could have been so stupid as to allow PC and console games to prevail, when there already was the perfect gaming and game development platform: the "home computer". Completely open, yet pretty standardized hardware with few variations.

I started gaming in the late 80s on a Commodore Amiga500. The Amiga was initially intended to be a gaming console, but was bought by Commodore and, after the success of the C64, turned into another home computer.

I still think it's the model of a perfect platform. And it's not just nostalgia speaking here, although I have to say: ...those were the days...

Guess I should post this in here instead of latestchatty

This new x360 developer thing has got me thinking. Anyone interested in building a SourceForge/Freshmeat style site dedicated to these hobbyist projects?

I'm thinking of a source code repository based on SVN, project release/announcements front page and project specific pages.. maybe a codeproject style section for articles as well.

If anyone thinks that might be an interesting project to work on, shoot me a message at bobby.johnsonATgmailDOTcom. I'm interested in picking up a couple devs for back end and a haiku guy to make a sharp front end. If you have a 360 all the better.

Am I right in thinking this is only C#? Or will I be able to use C++ too?

I hope this doesn't go the way of the original indie support project on Xbox1.

My one question is will this allow a sort of mod or add on scene for the 360? Like say with a game like Oblivion. If this tech were available and supported, would it eventually allow a user to load up a leveling mod, for instance? Or say we have a game like NWN. Will it eventually be possible to have user created modules?

Obviously, the games devs would have to support this, but this is an exciting possibility to me.

Wait, holy shit. I was going to just pass this off as "Yay for our console, yay for our development software" PR crap, but this is really cool.

Great. Virus writers have been antsy to get to this new platform.

This has me very excited. I can't wait for the 400 tetris clones all based off .NETTrix to hit the net.. woot.

So if devs left hooks in their games like say HL2 or Oblivion, would it be feasible to have a game mod community on the 360?

Microsoft has had Managed DirectX for years now. And if you go to Barnes & Noble you'll see a ton of books on how to use Managed DirectX and C# to make a game.

Problem has been that no serious game developer would consider C# to make a game. It might be almost as quick as C++ (or not) but C++ does still give that little speed edge you need plus it keeps you from having to explain to everyone why you need to instal the .NET Framework.

But if this plan works then Microsoft could actually have people developing games in C# (or other managed languages) and this, coupled with Vista having .NET support out of the box, might make C# viable for game development.

Very interesting.

Wow this is really cool. I wonder if Microsoft is going to allow people to sell their games on Live.
Only problem I see with this is that there will be too many homebrew games out there, making it near impossible to get attention unless you are one of the top 10 games.
also having the complier subscription based sucks.

If this goes well and a lot of developers get on board with xna, this could be one hell of a killer blow to the other consoles. If not this cycle, certainly the next console cycle.

They should change their licensing scheme too. Make it so its cheap to ship a game on the 360 by not charging a royalty for games unless they sell x units. Would encourage more PC games to be ported using xna even if they may not sell like crazy. Makes it easier to break even on a 'risky' title and profitable even if it sells an amount just under or over the threshold.

This is pretty awesome news. I just hope it becomes more open and cheaper in the future.