Quake 3 a big failure!

I have to admit that I used to think that Quake 3 was what I wanted, but after a while, I still had this feeling that it wasn't what I wanted. WIth Quake 2, I had the same feeling, and then I realized that all I really wanted was more Quake. Not Quake 2, not Quake 3, but Quake. It is faster, has un-nerfed weapons, more interesting movement physics allowing for complex acrobatics (check out the FDE, DDE, and other frag/trick demos), etc. Oh and it will run on almost any damn computer. Of course I wanted some improvements such as slightly improved graphics, built-in server browser, etc, but then again, since it was open sourced the Quake clients, servers, textures, models, and sounds have been improved and are freely available. So I switched _back_ to Quake:

General Quake Site:
http://www.quakeworld.nu/

Good Quake Client:
http://ezquake.sourceforge.net/gallery/

Great frag/trick demo (in avi format, unrar first):
http://gamefiles.blueyonder.co.uk/blueyondergames/movies/quakeworld/quakeworld_malfunctioned.rar

And I am happy. I can't stand the slow paced CS-style gameplay, where aim is based on a random number generator as opposed to the gamer's skill. I also cannot stand games that have nerf'ed weapons, so as to appeal to newbies, or slow paced movement and action, again to appeal to the newbies. Even worse, I hate it when the player movement physics are made "realistic" at the price of being fun. So in conclusion, to each his own. Of course, game companies will want to appeal to the newbie masses, so that they can make money, but they won't be getting my money.

I would play a new FPS as my "main" competitive FPS game, but there has yet to be a new commercial game that has Quake-like gameplay. Until then, I am quite content playing Quake. Of course, I still play other types of games in addition to FPS such as sims, RTS, fighting, RPG, etc.

"If there were a small set of professional rules that I agree with in theory but have chosen not to pursue because they conflict with more common play, then an official "pro mode" might make sense. Any other suggestions along those lines?"
-John Carmack, September 1999.

http://www.promode.org
True Deathmatch.

I'm willing to bet that a game where the goal is point and shoot gets old with the casual gamer. I know there is finesse and skill and tactics in 1v1 and team DM, and even in FFA, but deathmatch by itself is too "raw".

The rules are simple, and the objective is clear. But in the end, the "what you accomplish" factor is low.

My guess is -- gamers want questing. Or blowing up a barrier to let your teammates through. Build a bridge. Save hostages. Collect fancy +2 beastslaying items. Be teleported to different locations around the world. Be immersed in a story.

How do I explain the popularity of sports games? Part of it is living the dream of a pro-player. It's an adventure game where everyone already knows the heroes. They need no exposition. Real life is their story. The fun comes in proving your hero is better than your opponent's chosen hero. Deathmatch doesn't have that because it's not based on the same reality.

It's just possible that with the rich gaming experiences available to a gamer today, deathmatch has lost its appeal. You fire up the game now and again to score some points. A quick session of reflexes and thinking. A glorified Minesweeper.

Quake: Sex.

Quake II: Porn.

Quake III: Your buddy with funny ears finally got laid, and he told you.

Doo-- er, Quake IV: Jesus wants you to wait until marriage.

HAHAHAHA its kind of funny to hear the non hardcore q3 players complaign about people who could hit them mid-air with a rocket/rail slug ect.I never even thought that I was ruining the game for so many.Yeah I played alot of q3,maybe to much but seriously if you rocked at quake 1/2 you did well in quake 3.

I enjoyed quake 3 alot but for some reason it never equaled the fun I had with quake 2.Maybe it was the maps or maybe it was the physics.The main reason I switched was because of the graphics and I was absolutely sick of the twenty shades of brown for q2.Oh and I played The Edge one to many times.

I dont think it was a failure but it definetly was dumbed down from the earlier versions.

BTW quake 4 looks like ass for multiplay,heres hoping im wrong.

it dosnt matter how "dumbed" down a game is, with time, those same people that complain about getting killed in mid air will become "hardcore" players that will own "newbies" and make new or casual gamers complain on how "hard" the game is. its a never ending circle

honestly this makes me angry as hell, I loved quake3, it was perfection in my eyes. I still play it, I love it. :(

I played the shit out of quake1 and quake2 probably more hours then any other game in my life. When Q3A came out I thought it was the best balanced of all 3 but I only played it hardcore for a few months. The underlying thrill of killing someone with a railgun or rocket launcher was gone for me. It was fun for the first 5,684,292,345,405,022 times but after 3 years of doing it I just stopped caring.

man, QUAKE was the game. that shit was a fuckin masterpiece. a work of art. the atmosphere, the enemies, level design, artwork, multiplayer, music, sfx, everything. fuckin beautiful. sure, there wasnt much of a story, but its not like quake 2 had anything close to a complex twisted story. a fuckin three year old could have come up with the quake 2 story. its not like giving some stupid mission objectives makes a story/game any better. hit the switch to "shut down the meat packin facility" doesnt mean much more than find the yellow key. plus "the strogg". who even came up with that name. its the stupidest shit in the world. makron??? now shubniggurath. that was a boss. the cthulu influence in quake was fan-fuckin-tastic. plus the medievel setting with futuristic weapons. i hope raven does a good job with the quake 4 story. but they're just as friggin bad. soldier of fortune 2. that game was given me wet dreams before it came out. but jesus the singleplayer/story was so canned. these fuckin texans cant make a story to save their friggin lives. just like doom 3. jesus christ. and they even hired a writer. that dude should go back to writing christmas carols. we need INTELLIGENT games. INTELLIGENT stories, that boggle the mind. challenge the whole thought process that has been ingrained in our heads. something that we could actually ponder over. i mean i love all the games that these guys make. gameplay and all is fantastic. ive played evryone of them a million times. but come on. we've all grown up. i played doom 1 when i was 15. its been 10 fuckin years and they just added another paragraph to the plot about the ancients. a good story can make the biggest fuckin difference in the world. even with doom3's crap AI, stagnant A to B mission structure and all, a good story would have made the day. like a good book. id and raven neeed to fuckin hire a serious fuckin lead designer. who barely knows shit about coding, or bump mapping, or texturing. but someone who is a fuckin creative genius. someone who can come up with a story and put it in a game perspective. and make sure that the game stays true to his/her vision. we need philip k. dick sorta material. thats the shit that needs to be put together with their games. that shit will revolutionize the industry. john carmack, a fuckin god with a compiler, has no idea what a good story is. neither does willits, adrian, hoekstra, or any of those guys. but i aint dissin them. they are fuckin talented without doubt. but they dont know squat shit when it comes to writing a story. why does the fps culture have to be like the jock culture while the rpg peeps are where the real shit is at. sure half-life is there, and vampire and a coupla others. but they are so far in between. like far cry for example. that had the fuckin most retarded story, voice acting, and all that shit. its like they were almost trying to make things as bad as possible. i mean sure, i can understand they were trying to cater to the audience that feels intellectually challenged by movies like 'commando'. but the gameplay there was spot on, and if the story was actually half decent, it would make the whole scene a billion times better. its true, no one plays these games to see the next enemy (well we do, but its the least of anyones motivations). the idea is entertainment. entertain, like a nolan or aronofsky movie entertains. not like some michael bay, joel schumacher piece of shit. plus all these games are rated mature and are totally made for ages 18 to 35. well if you're gonna make some fuckin nursery rhyme level storyline, where the fuck are you guys gonna end up? we need fallout type storylines. we need a planescape torment quality script. we need the final fantasy 7 level of drawing the player. like anachronox. its not like that shit is out of their budget. it'll probably be the smallest part of the budget.
but seriously forks... what im basically saying.. INTELLIGENT GAMES. WE NEED INTELLIGENT games please. stop wasting our time and our eyesight. we love you devs and whatever you make we will buy. but come on. graphics and all is great. its like the 10 percent of the brain that humans do use is only decreasing. you dont need a brain to play these games. which is sad. and im not saying make some brain teasing chess squashing twister of a game. but how about something that actually makes you think instead of simply playing of your reflexes. when graeme devine came on board at id it was pretty exciting cause i liked 7th guest and 11th hour. but that didnt even go anywhere.
kids these days are getting stupider than dirt. and im sure games have a lot to do with it. but to tell you the truth, i really dont care too much about.
i just wanna see some good games. plus wasting all this potential is just a crime.

I really need to finish that Q3 AI...

when someone shoots me mid air with a rocket every 10 minutes, and i cant hit shit im not really having fun, and im not about to spend every extra minute i have in front of a crt tackling the learning curve to able to compete, as is the case for a casual gamer. So for casual gamers, i would agree Q3 was a huge failure. I loved the game for lans and with friends, but for playing online-forget it, ide rather do differential equations-they are frustrating, but at least i reap some benefit from the frustration.

My love for Q3A

How did I love Q3A? Let me count the ways...

First, the fact that id released the Q3Test was phenomenal for me. My friends and I played that constantly even before the game came out. I had so many hours of gaming fun I bought Q3A out of obligation because I felt that I'd already played the game enough to warrant the $50.00 even if it just sat on the shelf and I never played it again.

Second, at the time (and even now) it looked good. Once again Carmack had raised the bar on graphics & lighting. This was one of the first games that forced me to upgrade my video card, and it was worth it.

Third, it was fast paced in multiplayer. Unlike Q2 where if you were on a ladder it was easy to get nailed in Q3 you had the jump points, and that kept the game very fast. This was a decision I thought was good for gameplay and what they were going for regarding multiplayer, and I still feel that way.

While there is no question that Q3A had it's flaws and getting newbs into the fun was one of them, lets think of the time in which it was made. This was far before the idea of skill matching was around (or at least before it was implemented) so you didn't have the ability to choose what level of player with which you wanted to compete. Should id have implemented that? Sure! But how long would that have delayed the game? Would it be worth it? Now we know the answer is yes, but did id know that then?

My point is, lets look at things in context people. Willits wished that Q3 had more broad appeal, he's not suggesting that they dumb down the game.

I imagine most of the people bitching here about that should RTFA.

Thats not the reason why it failed. The game was too gimicky tech demonstration. Floating bouncy things, wacky alien models, wacky announcer voice. What most gamers want is cool, realistic, impactful experiences. It has to mean something when you shoot something. I want to see and feel what I've done in a realistic way when I interact with the world. Thats why making the imp's dissappear after I kill it in doom3 was the worst idea/decision in the world. I want to see what I have done which is killed, shot to pummus a demon. I want to see that left there and not dissappear. I want to see all the gore I have caused in the form of a body. Quake3 like Doom3 is clean room, bouncy, shiny place , that doesnt seem to matter after you shot something to pieces because it all disappears and is just a figment of your imagination and/or a game. In that way it leaves you still hungry after the experience. Thats why it failed. Its all about the human experience. I want to see what I have done to that other person multiplayer and not about process goals and technicals. I want to see what I have done to that other person online in a realistic, detailed way. Otherwise it gets stale fast.

"But the more casual gamers, and other people who actually have money, found playing next to impossible."

So it's all about appealing to EVERYONE, dumbing down a game and making a game that would make the most money. What about being creative and innovative? Is that no longer important? What ever happened to treating your loyal fanbase?

after hearing from Cliffy B that 75% of UT2004 players had never played online multiplayer, I don't find Willits' comments all that surprising

I'm sorry I played more hours of Rocket Arena 3 than any other mod I've touched; that game was just as addicting as CS was/is. Nothing made me spend more money to get better frame rates and have me change my mouse sens more just to get to the top of a leader board.

Plus the maps were just fantastic; makes me want to bring down the CS:S server for one more run. We had some great RA3 Shackbattles last summer if I can recall.

There has been NO multiplayer FPS since Doom/Doom2 OLD DEATHMATCH days that even comes close to the amount of balance and skill that was needed to win matches in Doom/Doom2. When Deathmatch 3.0 hit with Quake1, that was the end of true deathmatch. Item respawn encourages hording, running patterns, and camping areas. If they upped the amount of ammo you got with EACH weapon you picked up, and REMOVED all items from the level, THEN it would be closer to REAL deathmatch again.

And don't even get me started on CS, because that isn't even in the same category, nor are any of those stupid squad based, wait to respawn, boring games.

Q3 WAS A FAILURE BECAUSE IT DIDN'T CATER TO THE CONSOLE PLAYING NEWBS OR THE CASUAL GAMER. THEREFORE, ANYTHING MADE WHICH REQUIRES A SMALL LEARNING CURVE OR A LITTLE BIT OF SKILL IS A FAILURE.

THE MAJORITY OF OUR PLANET IS NEWBS AND WE MUST CATER TO THE MAJORITY. NEXT ID RELEASE WILL HAVE 2 BUTTONS. EVERYTHING WILL BE INSTA-GIB.

Man what a bunch of SHIT.

Blah blah blah.

Does anyone have Q3 sales numbers? The id name alone will move lots of units and it not like Q3 was a bad game. Ppl seem to be implying it was a failure sales wise and I have a hard time believing that.

He said pretty much the same thing at a conference I saw him at at E3 this year. While I think he's being a little overzealous, I can definitely see what he means with his comments though.

Sander, you have opened pandora's box!

Doom 3 was also a failure from a gameplay standpoint (My view)...just did nothing new...great graphics (which ID software always has) but lack of story line (which ID software always has)

Quake2 is still my favourite of them all

Damn, he really thinks Quake 3 failed because it was too hardcare? ACK.

It failed because after playing Q2 DM1-9(8?) for a few years, I was expecting a purely multiplayer game to have a better set of levels...not worse....

There were only 2, maybe 3 good multiplayer levels on release. These were fairly large levels that WHERE NOT...

a)levels which contained the gameplay RUINING bfg.
b)tiny dueling levels
c)mid sized but still too small levels
d)stupid space levels.

Add to that the shitty rail run trail, not 1/100th as cool as the Quake 2 one.

But what really annoyed me most was that Quake 3 accomplished nothing, while simultaniously killing off the Quake 2 deathmatch community.

I hated Quake3 when it came out. It was just...dull. None of the weapons were unique enough to stand out. Few of the maps were worth playing more than once. CTF had no hook or techs.

Everything was just too generic. I missed my spiral rail from q2. I missed the beastly q1 rocket launcher. I missed the awesome plasmagun from doom. I even missed the damn knife from wolf3d. All of those weapons had a style that was missing from quake3.

The mods saved Quake3, in my eyes. RA3 is a lot of fun, although I hated the early versions. Alliance CTF and ThreeWave worked wonders for the CTF community. And best of all, in my eyes, is Generations Arena.

Perhaps I'm biased because I've been involved with the project for years now, but the ability to replicate the old-school feel from the id classics in the q3 engine astounds me. Gen is truely a different game every time you play it, and it's customizable to a huge extent.

I just wish more people played it.

There are some crying ass people out there tonight, and I suspect a couple of them to be trolls at best.

Every game out there has talented players of some type or another. Just suck it up and keep playing or find another server. What, did you expect to install the game and expect to be at the same skill level as someboy who has been playing for a week/month/year longer than you?

You all might as well claim that StarCraft was a failure while your at it. -Or counterstrike, or even UT.

If only he knew how many hours I spent defending Q3 in that monster thread

I can see the Quake 5 configuration screen now:

Key Binds
Rail opponent – LMB
Rocket jump – Space
Forward while strafe jumping – E
Select optimum weapon and shoot opponent with it - Ctrl
Take me to nearest armour – Enter

Options
Alert me when the armour has respawned - on/off
Perform difficult jumps automatically – on/off
Aimbot – on/off

I don't think it failed at all. One of those "I always come back to it for a few kicks" games for me.

i hated the devil textures

Just ego stroking. That's like Ford saying the mustang was it's biggest failure because it couldn't haul soccer moms.

Trolling the front page... Is this slashdot or shacknews?

Quake 3 wasn't impossible to play...it was boring as hell. Don't try putting the blame on the "casual" gamers Willits. :-/

Proof again that id doesnt understand anything. Q3 was nothing for hardcore gamers. quakeworld was. and thats the reason they nerfed all the physics (aircontrol/bunnyhopping/jumping etc).
they actually tried to take out strafejumping but the outrcy of the community knocked some sense in their retarded heads.
q3 was way so aim centred that most players had they mousesens so low that it took 10cm and more dor a 180° turn (makiavelli aside)and most maps were a joke (they had like 3 good maps in q3). later on they claimed that they would add a pro mode for the hardcore gamers since they aimed for the mainstream with q3. the never delivered. all they brought was some "promaps" when most players had already moved on.
q3 would have been dead if not for the modding community that added osp and cpma( for the real "hardcore gamers") or rocket arena. it has nothing to do with q3 itself. just take a look at the servers that are running today.
his claims are ridiculus.
without the modding comunity q3 would have bee what domm3 is today. if you care just look how many servers are running...

Unreal Tournament is the reason why Quake 3 was a failure. UT did everything right and Q3 wanted to be more "console like" with its comical action....

This is a whole lot of unfounded hyperbole, and damn near circular logic.

OF COURSE casual gamers are going to find it impossible to play against "hardcore" gamers that have their config file tweaked to perfection to flawlessly twitch shoot...

Hrm.

If Quake 3 is a "big failure", what's Deus Ex 2?

Call me a casual gamer because I agree with him. Casual gamers don't like to get killed 35 times in 4 minutes by some twirp that lives just to play the game.

I'd like to have my own game company and create a game that sells as poorly as that failure, then! I want a Ferrari!

Aww I thought DOOM 3 was an excellent game. The nostalgia alone kept me playing single player over and over.. and the multiplayer was a blast.. imo.

I guess you needed to be around when Doom originally came out to truely appreciate it.. I for one love it.

I agree, this should be a minor item. Even if it is willits and even if it is q3, it's still just a dev talking about his game. Hardly big news.