DOOM @ QuakeCon

[Warning: angst present in following post. Not meant to flame or troll, but pretty harsh toward id]

Fuck this new Doom game, and fuck id. One little thing tipped me off on how this new Doom game will shape out - the AI "problem". What he's trying to say is that he wants the game to be exactly like the old Doom, but in a newer engine. GEE, WHERE HAVE WE HEARD THAT BEFORE? Oh, that's right, Quake/Quake2/Quake3. What the hell do they pay Graeme Divine for, to sit around and think "let's make one of our old games in a new engine!"? He says AI is lagging behind - I don't fucking buy it. Half-Life had excellent AI by most anyone's standards. Thief 2 had great AI. Deus Ex had some good AI. I don't buy that technology is preventing Carmack from making the Doom 3 enemies more than mindless drones - it sounds more like he's afraid to change the original Doom at all.

id has always been a company afraid of innovation since Romero and Tom Hall left. Romero and Hall were the dreamers at id, noted by Romero's original concept for Quake 1 (which ended up having shitty single player) and Tom Hall's "Doom Bible". They also proved how innovative they were with their respective Ion Storm projects. Daikatana was shitty, but it had some good ideas, just that they were very poorly implemented... then again, it had some bad ideas. If Romero weren't so busy getting those $900 chairs in his office, maybe he could've actually played the game and realized that save gems aren't any fun in an FPS. Anachronox just kicks ass and is probably the only recent console-style RPG to hit the computer screen since FF7/8 for PC were released.

Quake 4. Well, it's being made by Raven, aka "the company that puts quality content into id's engines", so I don't have much to worry about there. I will just point out, however, that it looks like what id is trying to do with this whole separation thing is prove their worth. They are trying to prove that they can still make an SP game with Doom3, they are trying to keep the pro gamers happy with Quake 4, and they are trying to prove that "hey, we're innovative! We don't just rehash our old games!" with the unannounced Nerve Software project. Thing is, though, that instead of hiring more employees, id is just letting their bitch companies (and the term 'bitch companies' is used lovingly here) do that for them. Raven will release a good game with the id logo stamped all over it, just like Heretic, and the same will go for the Nerve Software game.

I really hope one of two things happens: 1) id proves me an idiot and makes all 3 of these games kick a shitload of ass, or 2) id releases these games in the same rehashed, unimaginative fashion that they did with Quake3 and Q3: TA ("let's steal ideas for mods in TA from the mod community!" - again, WTF are they paying Graeme for?) but gets their ass beat down by Team Fortress 2, Deus Ex 2, Thief 3, and Unreal 2 (which should all be pretty fucking awesome). Since I know the latter will never happen, thanks to the plethora of blinded id fanboys everywhere, I can only hope for the first.

Oh well. Good luck on the games, id/Raven/Nerve.

To anyone who has seen the new Doom 3 movie at QuakeCon, please take a look at the video for the new game being developed called Internal Pain @ http:\\www.internalpain.sk
The character animation looks pretty good to me here, unfortunately not having seen the D3 video I'd be interested to hear how it compares.

Not to go against the tide here but... If this new DOOM does 'not' have hoards of enemies:-Teleporting around your location in high numbers (Say at least 30 ?).
Then I confess, I will be sorely disappointed, then again, seriously, how can it truely be possible to have so much detail on-screen at the same time, these articles say no more than 30 FPS on a GeForce4(?), I still have a Viper2 (Kicks at imaginary dust on clean floor shyly), I was planning on buying a GeForce, but now, why bother.
Supposedly cards capable of running this game will exist by the time the game is released, but if these cards are released near release time of DOOM meaning 'Ya gotta upgrade to play' Leading to you paying $350+ dollars to upgrade your vid card (Or CPU/Mommyboard). Ultimately, say if you buy game and vid card you pay $400 to play DOOM.
I mean shoot, the GeForce3 has been out a year (?) now, and its still rather pricey, like many red-blooded gamers I feel this new DOOM will be worth it... But being worth it doesn't mean you can afford it ?

-MadMatt

"Would you like an 'F' paper now or should I just mail it to you?" -- MadMatt/Furry Bug

Pretty much, if they make the multiplayer fast (the single player can be slow...but the multiplayer better be fucking fast, mmmkay), and if they have a badass SuperShotgun, and a badass shotgun, and maybe a cool rocket launcher then I'll be happy and buy it...my biggest fear is that they make a lousy title to a series that thus far has been amazing (I played DOOM1 single player over and over and over, and DOOM2's multiplayer was THE best if you take technology out of the equation).

Mmkay. 250 000 triangles. We're assuming they're using VB's here so there's only 16 bits per vertex of bandwidth cost (only sending indices). If they're doing VIPM they're probably sending triangles in discrete mode. Which equals 48 bits per poly. This all amounts to 1 500 000 bytes, or 1.5 MB for each model. Which is 45 MB per second at 30 fps.
Anyone remember the bandwidth for AGP 4x?

What troulbes me is that with 16 bit indices you can only access 65k triangles, so they have to have multiple vb's or switch to 32 bit indices which would double the bandwidth, and also isn't very fast on nvidia hardware if I'm not misstaken.

I'm still pretty sure they do som LOD before sending it down the graphics pipeline, VIPM is a good bet.

there's one other problem aside from AI: character movement.
No amount of polygons and not even the best AI can make up for sliding feet etc.To do that right requires someting like inverse kinematics or what's it called, for basic things like walking (not just for falling crates and stuff), not to mention climbing stairs. That will take a lot of cpu power and we're realy a long way off.
damn i'll be an old fart by the time we see that in games.

I wouldn't worry too much about a bathroom not looking futuristic. It's a bathroom. They haven't changed much since they moved indoors. You've got a crapper, you've got sinks, you've got stalls, and you've got tile. How much of that can change in the future?

"-By the time DOOM is released, next-gen cards will be available (GeForce4 or whatever)"

Which is why I didn't blow the extra money on a GeForce 3.

Still no word on processor or memory requirements. I'm thinking 1Ghz with 256Mb minimum, with a "recommended system" on at least 1.5GHz and 512Mb.

250000 polys / 4 passes (generous) = 63000 or something
thats not too insane ( in like 2 years )

Can we atleast get some soundrecordings from carmacks speach!? www.quakeconradio.com hellooooooo???

400!

DOOM release date :

"However, by the time the game ships, we will have at least GeForce4 or possibly even the next card beyond that so it should be smooth" -from Stomped

Nvida once had a 6 month product cycle but that kinda changed ..

so "GeForce 4 " might be out Q1/2002 and "GeForce 5" maybe Q4/2001 ..
so I guess DOOM will be released Christmas 2002

It might be 250,000 in the original model in maya then they use some kind of "funky averaging tool" like mp3 compression to drop it to 25,000 but still resembling the original (makes sense to me)

There is NO way it will have 250,000 triangles IN GAME, simply not happening, I know carmack does amazing shit that freaks us out now and then, but he can not do the impossible with todays technology (read, not just video cards but the entire structure of how a pc is built needs to be changed before this is possible)


in other opinions a "bathroom scene" ....mmmmmmmmmm tossing up between hating the idea and loving it.

i want it to be a UAC bathroom in a futuristic lab.
jesus where is romero to guide them on level design for this one ....

I'm actually glad cameras weren't allowed... I wish iD would just keep the Doom engine totally hidden until the release. I mean think of how amazing Quake3 looked when you saw the first screens/movies of it, but then think how ho-hum it was when you finally got it on your system 'cause it was all the same crap you'd seen for the entire time it was in development. The stuff I saw while waiting for Quake3 absolutely drove me insane and yeah it got me to go grab a copy as soon as I could, but I was really disappointed when I finally got to play it 'cause it wasn't anything new...

ummm, "It'll be released in 2 weeks!". 2 weeks? False, lie, what is it?

He did say it was a quarter million, okay? Steve ain't drunk off his ass. Get over it. Move on now. Thank j00.

Yes, yes... this seems to be shaping up nicely...

Disappointed about Quake IV being created, much or less based in the Quake 2 world :(

*knock knock knock*

I hope I got your attention now, folks. :)

Anyone, as I remember, there was an idea back in 1995 for Quake. Apparently, it involved monsters and soldiers pissing on your dead body after they killed you. It wasn't technologically possible at the time (Only Soldier of Fortune has done it, so far).

How cool would it be for an Imp to start pissing on your corpse after ripping you to shreds.

That would be funnier than shit. :)

AI? They chose to have zombies and demons for a reason

That troubles me a little...

asus a7a266 mobo
256mb pc2100 ddr ram
amd 1.2 tbird
elsa gladiac 920

equals

30fps

DOOM 3 is coming

CARMACK, PLEASE RELEASE DOOM 3 FOOTAGE! OH GOD I NEED IT! OH PLZ.

any 1337 3d studio max guy want to make a high polygon model and tell us how much you actually would see?

I'll believe the hype when I see it on my computer, until then this is all vaporware.

What Carmack said about 250,000 was that they have the models that big in Maya and the models are calculated in that, but the final models have a lot less. Basically for movement and specular effects the maps are generated with a lot more polygons.

Excitement about shit that we already know about before today and games not due out for years. I would like to know how CastleWolf multiplayer is shaping out.

probably 25,000 polygons..
steve cant type :P

#294

dude they dont understand what you are saying.

these guys are actually clueless enough to doubt Carmack.
can you believe that?

these idiots ( with no understanding of whats actually going on are throwing words like "IMPOSSIBLE", "it can never be done". it can be done given talent and time and may be money.

all of those ingredients are in id possession. if Carmack says 250K than its 250K. stand up and applaud his genious.

Everyone just wait for the slashdot people to bitch and carmack will go there and tell them what exactly is happening!

after playing my avg game of CS, i would say AI doesnt have to be top of the line, its pretty accurate to where 90% online gamers are in ability to think

for instance, if a group of 10 see 1 enemy they hide and run into the room 1 at a time while that 1 enemy picks them off at a time

when challenged the gamer will stand there like a dumbass while someone goes around them and shoots them in the back

im sure i could think of more examples...and these do apply to other games as well

Let me get this right - is this game being developed internally by id? By the same guys that brought us Q3?

I feel sorry for Trent Reznor.

From the The Unofficial Doom 3 FAQ regarding the high-poly models:

7) Models
All of the following in this section is speculation but it does seem to make a certain amount of sense, so I would go out on a limb and wager than while the details might be wrong, the underlying idea is probably correct.
In a statement in 1/01 on the Polycount boards, "Wrath," ex lead animator at Ion Storm, had the following to say about the Doom tech:

"Ayup...that's 500,000 poly models. I saw them, they were in game though probably not the way you think. The high poly version of the models were being used as the reference for all the cool lighting effects...the self-shadowing, bump mapping, displacements, etc. That info was being projected onto a much smaller version of the model, maybe 1500 polys or so. The high poly versions were untextured, the low poly models were using 3 or 4 256x256 skins I THINK. They were very hush hush about specifics."
"I dunno how exactly the magic was working, all I know is that they're starting with insanely detailed models, using them for all the lighting info, and passing that info on to the decimated skinned model that's actually running about in game. Not that you would be able to tell. You get close enough to a model, you can see the creases in fingers. All looking incredible."

http://doomworld.com/files/doom3faq.shtml

I thought Max Payne was pushing the PC requirements a bit.. Even with the allotted time, these specs still seem out of the range of the average Dell user.

Without reading every comment, I'd guesstimate 103838 people have already said this, but some video would be nice.

I know that Trent Reznor is popular, but I would like to hear what Bobby Prince (origional Doom music guy) could do with modern sound hardware.

The origional Doom music rocked and was VERY moody.

FUCK YOU ID

that is all.