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Privacy & Cheating

by Steve Gibson, Jun 19, 2001 12:55pm PDT
Related Topics – Games: PC

Another discussion for the afternoon for you guys. We've lightly touched on this one before but I'm pretty curious what the general feeling is out there about privacy as opposed to stopping cheating in gaming. The simple question is this:

Q: Would you be willing to let developers have their games inspect and possibly send information about the hardware and software you are using while playing your game in order to help them better combat cheating? Given that the information would not be tied to you personally.
A lot of developers out there are wondering about this. What concerns would you have about your privacy and why would it bother you if a game developer had that information. What if developers were legally obligated to never share any of that information and only to use it for internal development to improve their products. Would you still be opposed to this? Would you value the privacy of what you're using to play games over the possibility of a more cheater free environment? In what possible scenario would you allow your information to be sent?


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99 Threads | 465 Comments
  • #464
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    By: jcupitt x
    Reply
    How about this to detect hacked .exes:

    - client connects and asks to be 'frisked'
    - server thinks up a random number, encrypts it using a checksum calculated from a legit game, embeds it in a tiny exe, and sends it to client
    - client executes downloaded code (erm, not very safe)
    - downloaded code checks out the running game in some bizarre way, calculates a checksum, and uses checksum to decrypt random number
    - client posts decrypted number back to server
    - server checks numbers match

    to stop people disassembling the frisker and faking the reply, you'd need to change it every few days.

    I guess you could break this if you hacked an x86 emulator into the client which ran the frisker in a sandbox, and redirected reads to a legit copy of the game running in another part of your machine ... but that would be pretty difficult.
    Jun 21, 2001 7:27am PDT
  • #445
    Refresh Thread
    By: J33ves This person is cool! x
    Reply
    1) The number of Cheats / Hacks available for a game are directly proportional to the number of people playing said game.

    2) 99% of windows users install software in the 'default' place... as evidenced by 99.99999999999% of eMail viruses using the path 'C://Program Files/...' as the base of their mischief.

    3) 99.9% of cheaters are Windows users, as 99.9% of people who write hacks are windows users. Bill Gates does not tolerate games being played on any other platform. He also makes sure that 99.9% of the computing public are clueless. (this is important!)

    4) Given the above, more than 99.9% of the CHEATING public will install hacks in a pre-determined directory, for a game that is installed in a pre-determined directory.

    5) Given that 99.9999% of the computing public does NOT store pr0n, MP2s, or illegal stuff in the directory that they installed game in, why, given a STRICT legal contract entered into by the game company (quite the opposite of the EULA) that they will ONLY look in 'c://program files/my company/my game' for files that do not belong there, would you object?

    If you didn't want them poking around at all.. install in a different directory. This would preclude you from joining "pure" games, but you are safe from Big Brother... tho if you are using a MicroShaft OS, you've already given up heaps more than id Software could EVER get on you...

    Why WOULDN'T you do this?
    Jun 19, 2001 7:38pm PDT

    Thread Truncated. Click to see all 2 replies.

  • #458
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    By: hi-c x
    Reply
    These are fair questions, but they only beg other, more specific questions. Like:

    #1. So, collecting data about "other software you are using while playing your game" means specifically other processes running, but doesn't mean a wholesale rummaging through the Windoze registry? If so, yeah, sure, why not? But if you feel you need to know more than that, such as what we have installed, no, forget it. Playing your game in a cheat-free environment is important, but I don't plan to piss in a cup for you.

    #2. This collected "information would not be tied to you personally." First of all, that's awfully hard to ensure when you have an IP. Moreover, if the game company's records are ever compromised, then poof! there goes the assurance of privacy. And doesn't this raise another issue related to what exactly you are trying to accomplish? If the idea is to fight cheating by gathering data, then there are other, less universally intrusive ways to do so: run a server and study the data, or (as Punkbusters claims to do) infiltrate the game-hacking community. But if the idea is to bust individual cheaters -- which clearly it should be -- then that sort of undercuts any notion of collecting data without "tying it to you personally," now doesn't it?

    #3. Why not focus upon catching and punishing individual cheaters? Make part of the EULA a promise that you won't use cheats, and then enforce the EULA: suspend or ban "convicted" cheaters' CDs during the server authentication process. Sure, that raises all kinds of thorny issues of commitment (mainly financial but also ethical and legal) on the part of the developer and publisher, but hey, you're paid good money to make your game perform as promised at the point of sale. In an important sense, it throws this issue back on the doorstep where it belongs: yours. Not ours.
    Jun 20, 2001 1:55am PDT
  • #457
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    By: Barbarian x
    Reply
    I saw someone on csnation.counter-strike.net suggest a way in the comments to detect Wallhack, that should be looked at, that can be implemented NOW.

    Draw two flat polygons, one of one random color, one of another. Stick one in front of the other. Render the scene and grab the framebuffer -- if any of the back polygon shows up, wallhack = on. If you light them fullbright this will work fine as long as the colors are dissimilar. You'd only have to do this for one frame, at random times during the game (since wallhack can be turned on/off), so it shouldn't interfere with anything. Random colors are needed so that an opengl proxy can't automatically detect them. You could even render them on top of the scene and stick them in the corner and make them small.
    Jun 20, 2001 1:19am PDT
  • #403
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    By: Torias x
    Reply
    Furthermore:

    Hard Drive scanning = no way pal.

    the only files they should need to check would be the files associated with that game.

    scan the graphics drivers in use and any programs running when the game is started (or programs started during play).

    are there any cheats good scanning like that would miss? Scan the game files for hacked models / maps / sounds / game code. Scan the graphics drivers for hacked drivers or asus l33t ch34t3r drivers... Scan the current program stack for other cheat programs, such as proxies or whatever.

    The servers "cheat definition" files would need to be on autoupdate... kinda like how virus definition files can be autoupdated...

    and of course, make the cheat checking a server side option... so people can run pure (cheat checked) servers or open servers were people can use custom models / sounds or whatever...
    Jun 19, 2001 5:23pm PDT
  • #380
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    By: Torias x
    Reply
    Requirements for me to accept the hardware / software reporting:

    1. A very detailed description of exactly what data will be transimitted, how it will be checked and that it will not be stored for any longer than the duration of my current game.

    2. Make it optional during online play, and of course have it non functional during single player.

    3. During online play, have normal servers, and pure servers. If you log onto a pure server, it will pop up a box stating that in order to play on this server you must allow the game to run a quick survey of your system and send this report to the server.


    There is no reason to store any of this data permanently.... and if the data isn't stored for longer than the duration of your game, that will go a long way to easing peoples privacy concerns
    Jun 19, 2001 4:12pm PDT
  • #343
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    By: TargetBoy x
    Reply
    First, this wouldn't really stop anything. It might take some of the less talented cheat developers out of the picture, but all you need is one talented one to publish theirs and the scheme is worthless. Even worse, someone could make cheat tools to help others do the same.

    How do you protect against the possibility that the first response to something like this could be to hack the OS to lie to the application?

    Second, what's in it for me to allow a company to know about my hardware? I've been lied to too many times now by companies that have tried to turn something that was supposed to reduce costs for me into a profit center. What about the case of e-toys where extraordinary hoops had to be jumped through to prevent the sale of information that was promised to be private once the company went out of business? Who is to say that someone will be a white knight next time this happens?

    Considering the deplorable licenses, such as the UCITA, that software companies already cram down our throats in order to use software, and the excesses that the MPAA, RIAA, and Microsoft have shown themselves willing to undertake to ensure that their greed supercedes any right to fair use that we might have, I am no longer inclined to let any company have any information about my machine, since it has been proven that any information handed over can and will be abused.
    Jun 19, 2001 3:21pm PDT