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DOOM & Competition Gaming
by Steve Gibson, May 09, 2001 6:30am PDTWith the recent word of the new "pro" maps being developed by Fred Nilsson over at id Software to be included into the next Quake3 release and the recent demonstration of new spectator technology by Valve Software for Counter-Strike at the Speakeasy CPL tournament it's becoming apparent that game developers are taking notice and putting effort into the competitive gamer. Well it could get a lot more interesting. A story at ShackES (plug! plug!) pointed the way to this simple quote by the CPL president. Here is a link to the full interview btw.
sling_blade: what games are you most looking forward to as possible e-sports games? angel munoz: doom iii's pro-addon pack. update from Angel: I said that as a funny (hopeful) remark but it has been blown out of proportion. I keep forgetting how strong the emotional binds are between the Quake community and id Software. On the other hand, John Carmack told me himself that the plan was to have a separate multiplayer add-on, it would not surprise me, if they added some tourney software to it. Best person to ask is Mr. Carmack himself, I think it is all in his head at this point.But this begs a very interesting question. What exactly are the characteristics of a FPS game that would make a good tournament competition platform? Save your whining about the 'pro gamer' stuff at the door. (read: trolling = nuke/ban) This question applies to everyone. What aspects do you think belong and dont belong in a game targeted at top level competition? Are developers like Valve and id doing 'the right thing' by paying so much attention to these players? What do you think?
Comments
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Seriously though, the only way to truly test the skill of a group of players is to only have one gun. Think about it.
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Attacking the base, rescuing hostages, finding the key goal type.
Running around, capitalising on luck, and being a damn good shot.
any thoughts?
rad.
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funny
Blowouts between evenly matched players shouldn't be possible, but neither should 0-0 sudden death overtimes between two overly defensive players.
And for god's sakes... if you aren't going to have sanctions on who can play for who (a la professional sports or even amatuer sport leagues), then you can NOT have team games for E-Sports. Stick to 1 vs. 1 gamesets until you can simulate some sort of "salary cap" for players.
Nothing worse than watching two teams full of ringers lame it up for 100 grand.
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Competitive CTF is a different bag altogether. You need to have a variety of weapons and power-ups to make it a true team game. Tribes 2 is the poster-boy for this type of competition. Require true teamwork, and you have valid competition.
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1. Weapons that are balanced and no one super weapon that you only use.
2. Maps that lend to several different strategies and not just respawn running patterns
3. Maps that lend to LISTENING to where the opponent is.
4. Footsteps - all these people that complain about footsteps have little ability to adapt to the added strategy that it adds. I think most people would agree that it takes much more talent and strategy to dominate in a CS game than in a q3 game. q3 is only quick flick reflexes and pattern running. CS is quick flick, BUT also using the map more to your advantage, listening to the other person, using the right weapon etc.
3. Grenades etc that are easy to use (unlike the q2 one that was so horribly slow).
Things not to include
1. maps that encourage respawn running patterns... competitive strategy shouldn't sole depend on how good of a timer you have in your head, but rather, knowing best weapon combinations etc
2. One position dominant maps.
3. Lag weapons
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Now look at what quake was like. There was wild swings of power. One player would be dominating, the other would work and work and finally kill the dominator, and then he had to rush wildly to gain control of the spawns while the other player tried to get a rebound kill. The gameplay of quake(doom also I guess) led to much faster game play, and hence much more fun demos and much more of an enjoyable spectator experience. I think doom3 should go back to the doom/quake style of weapons, have a few really powerful weapons, and make the rest of the weapons cool, but not too powerful. I think it would go a long ways towards making doom3 the preferred competitive game.
Sorry if I blathered on and on, i just stayed up all night studying for a test.
pasta
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because an id game with no multiplayer out of the box is like, that just makes me sick
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-Norulez
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There will always be some niche interest in them, but as "professional leagues" they hold little hope. They just appeal to a very small demographic. Highly nerdy, highly computer literate, mostly young, mostly male audience.
The kind of audience who is more likely to steal the products of the sponsors, than any other demographic in any other market on earth.
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I think people give Carmack too much credit. He writes the engine, yeah, and he's co-founder of Id, and owns 1/3 of the company, but really, he doesn't make ALL of the decisions. I realize that if he REALLY set himself on wanting something, it would happen because they can't afford to lose him, but when you say "Carmack decides to release patch x" you can't be sure Carmack actually sat down and decided on every single feature.
For instance, it isn't just Carmack that decides what pro charactaristics Doom3 will have, the othe programmers (duffy, graeme especially) will make that decision as well.
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My reasoning is this, both the single and multiplayer aspects of a good game are both very important and both should be developed seperately. Because if you start trying to do both from the beginning one starts to influence the other and then you end up with just an average game all the way around. If both are developed as two seperate entities, where id can give full attention to one, complete it, then turn its attention to the other and complete it, they can pull off the best damn single and multiplayer game ever.
One thing to keep in mind though is that if they do a multiplayer add-on, I really wouldn't, and hope they don't, expect to see the single player maps used for DM or Tourney maps. The multiplayer maps should be fully seperate entities that use no parts from the single player maps.
As for the mulitplayer maps I have an idea that id should consider. For the multiplayer maps, go back thru all of their games and pick and choose the best loved maps for multiplay. Then from those maps have a simple online vote, and when I say simple just a yes or no this map should be included. Then once they have enough input into which maps are gonna be enjoyed the most take those maps and revamp them for the new DooM engine. Fully retexture and redesign parts of them. The maps I would love to see in the new Doom engine would be all of the DM maps from Q1. Imagine all of those dark, moody, and gloomy as hell, and then have like 20-30 players in them for an all out blood bath.
Don't get me wrong I think id should release like 5 or 6 brand new multiplayer maps also. But since multiplay is gonna be an add-on they should redo the tried and true maps from past games.
As far as anything else Doom related I think everyone, me included, just needs to sit back shut the hell up and let id get the damn thing made and out into our waiting cd-rom drives.
Corvus 6
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Novus
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2. good solid maps
3. good spectating capabilities
4. proper demo support this time, ffwd, rwd, pause, editable etc
5. a little less aim based than q3 (can be fixed with good maps)
6. a little less newbie friendly than q3
7. customizable client (for more fps)
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I don't know. I mean We all want the best of all possible worlds, reality wise, I would like to see (personally) Doom III incoroporate all the ID games, including the best of the Monsters and give a nice little single player experience like the original Doom. If a multiplayer "add-on" pack is done for this, then i would expect nothing less than a QIII style MP pack. QIII should have been an addon to QII. that's my 2 centavos.
id is correct in listening to what the fans want. it's not going to please everyone, but it's going to make them more popular and accessable for suggestions in the future (at least i believe), even the whacko suggestions.
Imo QW was pure luck concerning DM, but that's just my two cents.
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So it should not depend on luck regarding respawn locations or random bullet trajectories.
I think most of the rest of the game design depends on what type of game you want; if you want the balance of power to tip quickly, add weapons and powerups that you don't spawn with. The player that is on top can keep those out of the hands of the loser relatively easy so you'll have a domination style game.
Compared to soccer it would be like making the goal of the loosing team wider.
I think there's no need to elaborate on what to do to make a different type of game.